Nobody Wants Your App. They Want Their AI Agent to Use It.

livestream1:10:3321 Oct 2026
The panel explores how AI agents use MCP tools to carry out work across existing systems, with examples in webinar attribution, inbox triage and task capture. They also debate AI-assisted creativity, automated content, cognitive load, platform adoption and accountability under an AI manager.
Dave Pengelley
Richard Webbe
Matt Slager
Marno Brits
YouTube
Show notes
Episode notes

Matt argues that people want the value of software through the agents and tools they already use, rather than another app to log into. Dave Pengelley, Richard Webbe, Matt Slager and Marno Brits discuss what that means for building useful AI workflows.
Practical examples

Webinar attribution: Matt describes asking an agent to monitor incoming applications and bookings and correct missing attribution after the wrong call-to-action link was shared.
Inbox and meeting tasks: Dave describes connecting Hermes to an inbox and sending reminders through Telegram into Plane.
Agent tooling: the discussion covers defined MCP tools, back-end administration, updates to existing n8n workflows, and the distinction between coding sessions and day-to-day operational agents.
Small, personal tools: Dave shares his cue-card micro app and describes agents passing development and review work between them overnight.
The wider discussion

Richard uses his crayon sketches to explore creativity and AI-assisted variations. The panel debates generic LinkedIn responses, outreach that feels like spam, automated job applications, and media narratives that anthropomorphise AI systems.
The productivity discussion asks whether faster workflows relieve cognitive strain or squeeze more decisions into the day. A closing debate asks whether people would accept an AI manager, and who would hear an appeal or take responsibility for an unfair decision.
Transcript
[00:00] Dave Pengelley: Launching hot. That's the name we

[00:02] Marno: Hello.

[00:02] Dave Pengelley: used to dance under.

[00:05] Dave Pengelley: Um

[00:07] Marno: How are we gentlemen?

[00:09] Dave Pengelley: man. Gotta

[00:10] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: I

[00:10] Dave Pengelley: get some of

[00:10] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: am

[00:10] Dave Pengelley: those

[00:10] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: max

[00:10] Dave Pengelley: jokes

[00:10] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: head

[00:10] Dave Pengelley: out before

[00:11] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: roaming

[00:11] Dave Pengelley: the

[00:11] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: a

[00:11] Dave Pengelley: uh

[00:11] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: bit,

[00:11] Dave Pengelley: before

[00:11] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: aren't

[00:12] Dave Pengelley: the

[00:12] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: I?

[00:12] Dave Pengelley: stream picks it up.

[00:14] Matt: Yeah,

[00:14] Marno: That's

[00:14] Matt: what is that glitchy

[00:15] Marno: it.

[00:15] Matt: like

[00:16] Marno: This

[00:16] Matt: that

[00:16] Marno: is actually a

[00:17] Dave Pengelley: It's

[00:17] Matt: chunky

[00:17] Marno: hijack

[00:17] Dave Pengelley: doing it

[00:17] Marno: Amazon

[00:17] Dave Pengelley: again,

[00:18] Matt: movement?

[00:18] Dave Pengelley: right?

[00:18] Marno: now.

[00:18] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: I'm a glitchy guy.

[00:20] Dave Pengelley: It's

[00:21] Matt: You

[00:21] Dave Pengelley: his

[00:21] Matt: got a

[00:21] Dave Pengelley: AI

[00:21] Matt: nice haircut.

[00:21] Dave Pengelley: avatar. That's the problem. Richard

[00:22] Marno: It's

[00:23] Dave Pengelley: keeps

[00:23] Marno: been great, gentlemen.

[00:23] Dave Pengelley: sending his

[00:24] Marno: It's

[00:24] Dave Pengelley: AI

[00:24] Marno: been great.

[00:24] Dave Pengelley: avatar.

[00:24] Marno: I've got um a short

[00:25] Dave Pengelley: Um

[00:25] Marno: week

[00:25] Matt: Oh,

[00:25] Marno: of

[00:26] Matt: it's

[00:26] Dave Pengelley: it

[00:26] Marno: go

[00:26] Matt: back

[00:26] Marno: back

[00:26] Matt: now,

[00:26] Dave Pengelley: really

[00:26] Marno: to

[00:26] Matt: it's

[00:27] Marno: Perth

[00:27] Matt: fine.

[00:27] Dave Pengelley: it really threw

[00:27] Marno: tomorrow.

[00:27] Dave Pengelley: him off this week when

[00:28] Marno: It's

[00:28] Dave Pengelley: character

[00:28] Marno: been

[00:28] Dave Pengelley: AI

[00:28] Marno: awesome.

[00:29] Dave Pengelley: shut

[00:29] Marno: It's

[00:29] Dave Pengelley: down

[00:29] Marno: been

[00:29] Dave Pengelley: because

[00:29] Marno: very,

[00:29] Dave Pengelley: now

[00:29] Marno: very

[00:29] Dave Pengelley: he's He couldn't

[00:30] Marno: productive.

[00:30] Dave Pengelley: use that anymore.

[00:31] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Exactly. Very good

[00:32] Marno: Yeah.

[00:32] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: point.

[00:33] Marno: Yeah.

[00:33] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Very

[00:33] Dave Pengelley: I

[00:33] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: good

[00:34] Dave Pengelley: d

[00:34] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: point.

[00:34] Dave Pengelley: I I don't even know what that was.

[00:35] Marno: Oh

[00:35] Dave Pengelley: I just

[00:35] Marno: mate,

[00:36] Dave Pengelley: I was

[00:36] Marno: I

[00:36] Dave Pengelley: getting

[00:36] Marno: feel

[00:36] Dave Pengelley: a lot

[00:36] Marno: like

[00:36] Dave Pengelley: of

[00:36] Marno: I need

[00:36] Dave Pengelley: headlines.

[00:36] Marno: a massive haircut, but hopefully it looks okay, yeah.

[00:39] Dave Pengelley: Um

[00:40] Matt: Hey,

[00:40] Dave Pengelley: yeah,

[00:40] Matt: guys,

[00:40] Dave Pengelley: we're

[00:41] Matt: then

[00:41] Marno: Yeah

[00:41] Dave Pengelley: well, I

[00:41] Marno: the

[00:42] Dave Pengelley: don't

[00:42] Marno: cams

[00:42] Dave Pengelley: know. Um just

[00:42] Marno: definitely

[00:42] Dave Pengelley: so you

[00:42] Marno: help.

[00:43] Dave Pengelley: just

[00:43] Marno: Oh

[00:43] Dave Pengelley: reminder for

[00:43] Marno: sorry

[00:43] Dave Pengelley: everyone, we are

[00:44] Marno: sit

[00:44] Dave Pengelley: live.

[00:44] Marno: back a little bit

[00:44] Dave Pengelley: Okay,

[00:44] Marno: there.

[00:45] Dave Pengelley: hit

[00:45] Marno: That's

[00:45] Dave Pengelley: the go

[00:45] Marno: we go.

[00:45] Dave Pengelley: button. I know often

[00:47] Matt: we've

[00:47] Dave Pengelley: we uh we

[00:48] Matt: got to

[00:48] Dave Pengelley: have a little bit of pre show chat before we actually

[00:50] Matt: a be bit little more than a

[00:50] Dave Pengelley: get

[00:51] Matt: bit. little

[00:51] Dave Pengelley: into the the pre show chat on the pr on the actual show. Anyway, um we are we are live. We're all we're all busy people, we're all just running at the razor's edge at the moment, aren't we?

[01:02] Matt: Literally, yeah, in one many ways, in in

[01:04] Dave Pengelley: Yeah.

[01:04] Matt: in more ways than one.

[01:05] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Very much so.

[01:07] Dave Pengelley: Uh but I'm I'm I well

[01:08] Marno: Yeah,

[01:08] Dave Pengelley: I

[01:09] Marno: I

[01:09] Dave Pengelley: thank

[01:09] Marno: mean

[01:09] Dave Pengelley: you

[01:09] Marno: it

[01:09] Dave Pengelley: gentlemen

[01:09] Marno: it's just a

[01:10] Dave Pengelley: for

[01:10] Marno: thing

[01:10] Dave Pengelley: both

[01:10] Marno: of like

[01:10] Dave Pengelley: turning

[01:10] Marno: follow

[01:10] Dave Pengelley: up and

[01:11] Marno: the

[01:11] Dave Pengelley: helping

[01:11] Marno: incentive,

[01:11] Dave Pengelley: me do a

[01:11] Marno: right?

[01:11] Dave Pengelley: show.

[01:12] Marno: They're

[01:12] Dave Pengelley: It's much

[01:12] Marno: incentivized

[01:12] Dave Pengelley: more interesting than

[01:13] Marno: to

[01:13] Dave Pengelley: uh Dave

[01:13] Marno: sell drama

[01:14] Dave Pengelley: solo talking

[01:14] Marno: and

[01:14] Dave Pengelley: head.

[01:14] Marno: chaos.

[01:15] Dave Pengelley: But

[01:15] Marno: So that's

[01:15] Dave Pengelley: uh

[01:16] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: That

[01:16] Marno: gonna

[01:16] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: is

[01:16] Marno: sell

[01:16] Dave Pengelley: not

[01:16] Marno: a

[01:16] Dave Pengelley: that

[01:16] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: true.

[01:16] Marno: lot better

[01:16] Dave Pengelley: we

[01:17] Marno: than someone saying, Oh, this isn't

[01:18] Dave Pengelley: I

[01:18] Marno: actually

[01:18] Dave Pengelley: would

[01:18] Marno: that bad,

[01:18] Dave Pengelley: I would

[01:18] Marno: it's

[01:18] Dave Pengelley: do solo

[01:19] Marno: actually pretty

[01:19] Dave Pengelley: talking

[01:19] Marno: exciting

[01:19] Dave Pengelley: head.

[01:20] Marno: and

[01:20] Dave Pengelley: I would just

[01:20] Marno: cool.

[01:20] Dave Pengelley: make it work. I

[01:21] Marno: Yep.

[01:21] Dave Pengelley: wouldn't wouldn't it's not my my not my first choice. Um and hopefully you guys would give me enough warning ahead of time I could try and get a few of the super friends in. To help. Um yeah,

[01:32] Marno: 100%.

[01:32] Dave Pengelley: yeah.

[01:33] Marno: It's

[01:33] Dave Pengelley: I've

[01:33] Marno: a show.

[01:33] Dave Pengelley: actually um

[01:34] Marno: But it's good

[01:34] Dave Pengelley: yeah,

[01:34] Marno: to see the

[01:35] Dave Pengelley: I'm

[01:35] Marno: three

[01:35] Dave Pengelley: I'm

[01:35] Marno: of you. It's

[01:35] Dave Pengelley: working

[01:35] Marno: been

[01:36] Dave Pengelley: out

[01:36] Marno: awesome.

[01:36] Dave Pengelley: a way so it's a bit

[01:37] Matt: Sometimes

[01:37] Dave Pengelley: easier

[01:37] Matt: we're

[01:37] Dave Pengelley: for

[01:37] Matt: not

[01:37] Dave Pengelley: some of our friends that aren't always available

[01:39] Matt: going

[01:39] Marno: Likewise,

[01:39] Matt: to

[01:39] Dave Pengelley: to opt in

[01:40] Marno: likewise.

[01:40] Matt: be

[01:40] Dave Pengelley: just

[01:40] Matt: able to

[01:40] Marno: 100%.

[01:40] Dave Pengelley: uh

[01:40] Matt: do

[01:40] Dave Pengelley: on

[01:41] Matt: that.

[01:41] Dave Pengelley: on a free

[01:41] Marno: 100%.

[01:41] Dave Pengelley: will basis. Um,

[01:43] Marno: I was

[01:43] Dave Pengelley: seeing

[01:43] Marno: just

[01:43] Dave Pengelley: the

[01:43] Marno: talking

[01:44] Dave Pengelley: Mano

[01:44] Marno: about it

[01:44] Dave Pengelley: seems

[01:44] Marno: yesterday.

[01:45] Dave Pengelley: to not

[01:45] Marno: I

[01:45] Dave Pengelley: be

[01:45] Marno: feel

[01:45] Dave Pengelley: with us

[01:45] Marno: I'm

[01:45] Dave Pengelley: anymore.

[01:46] Marno: so

[01:46] Dave Pengelley: Um, and we've always

[01:47] Marno: I'm

[01:47] Dave Pengelley: got a fourth

[01:47] Marno: so in

[01:47] Dave Pengelley: chair.

[01:48] Marno: the not

[01:48] Dave Pengelley: Uh

[01:48] Marno: necessarily

[01:48] Dave Pengelley: and also

[01:48] Marno: the

[01:49] Dave Pengelley: Richard,

[01:49] Marno: chaos,

[01:49] Dave Pengelley: I'm I'm

[01:49] Marno: but

[01:49] Dave Pengelley: looking

[01:49] Marno: there's

[01:49] Dave Pengelley: at

[01:49] Marno: been a

[01:50] Dave Pengelley: setting

[01:50] Marno: lot

[01:50] Dave Pengelley: up

[01:50] Marno: of

[01:50] Dave Pengelley: another

[01:50] Marno: busy

[01:50] Dave Pengelley: link

[01:50] Marno: work

[01:50] Dave Pengelley: that

[01:50] Marno: and

[01:50] Dave Pengelley: we can

[01:50] Marno: there's

[01:50] Dave Pengelley: send

[01:51] Marno: been

[01:51] Dave Pengelley: out

[01:51] Marno: a

[01:51] Dave Pengelley: to

[01:51] Marno: lot of

[01:51] Dave Pengelley: um

[01:51] Marno: reflection.

[01:51] Dave Pengelley: special guests. That way

[01:52] Marno: Um,

[01:52] Dave Pengelley: we don't double

[01:52] Marno: this

[01:53] Dave Pengelley: book.

[01:53] Marno: is

[01:53] Dave Pengelley: And

[01:53] Marno: the

[01:53] Dave Pengelley: we've

[01:53] Marno: first

[01:53] Dave Pengelley: got

[01:53] Marno: Wednesday

[01:53] Dave Pengelley: like a link

[01:54] Marno: that I've

[01:54] Dave Pengelley: where

[01:54] Marno: had

[01:54] Dave Pengelley: if you

[01:55] Marno: off

[01:55] Dave Pengelley: want to invite

[01:55] Marno: um

[01:55] Dave Pengelley: a special guest,

[01:56] Marno: in

[01:56] Dave Pengelley: they

[01:56] Marno: probably

[01:56] Dave Pengelley: can pick it,

[01:56] Marno: a

[01:56] Dave Pengelley: pick

[01:57] Marno: good

[01:57] Dave Pengelley: a Wednesday.

[01:57] Marno: seven months.

[01:58] Dave Pengelley: And

[01:58] Marno: Um,

[01:58] Dave Pengelley: there's

[01:58] Marno: and that

[01:59] Dave Pengelley: one

[01:59] Marno: was

[01:59] Dave Pengelley: seat

[01:59] Marno: by

[01:59] Dave Pengelley: available. Available on

[02:00] Marno: I

[02:00] Dave Pengelley: that

[02:00] Marno: was

[02:00] Dave Pengelley: sp

[02:00] Marno: meant to be

[02:00] Dave Pengelley: on

[02:00] Marno: driving

[02:00] Dave Pengelley: each

[02:01] Marno: to

[02:01] Dave Pengelley: Wednesday.

[02:01] Marno: Perth

[02:01] Dave Pengelley: That

[02:01] Marno: this

[02:01] Dave Pengelley: way

[02:01] Marno: morning,

[02:01] Dave Pengelley: we don't

[02:02] Marno: but

[02:02] Dave Pengelley: end

[02:02] Marno: that

[02:02] Dave Pengelley: up

[02:02] Marno: got

[02:02] Dave Pengelley: double

[02:02] Marno: can

[02:02] Dave Pengelley: booking

[02:03] Marno: to

[02:03] Dave Pengelley: special

[02:03] Marno: last minute,

[02:03] Dave Pengelley: guests

[02:03] Marno: so

[02:03] Dave Pengelley: if we're

[02:03] Marno: I'll be

[02:04] Dave Pengelley: inviting

[02:04] Marno: drawing to Perth

[02:04] Dave Pengelley: people

[02:04] Marno: tomorrow

[02:05] Dave Pengelley: um

[02:05] Marno: morning instead

[02:05] Dave Pengelley: as individuals.

[02:05] Marno: for a wedding.

[02:06] Dave Pengelley: I'll give that to you as well,

[02:06] Marno: Um

[02:07] Dave Pengelley: Matt.

[02:07] Marno: so

[02:07] Matt: That's

[02:07] Dave Pengelley: But

[02:07] Marno: I

[02:07] Dave Pengelley: uh,

[02:07] Matt: a

[02:07] Marno: get

[02:07] Matt: cool

[02:07] Marno: a

[02:07] Dave Pengelley: you

[02:08] Marno: free

[02:08] Dave Pengelley: know,

[02:08] Matt: idea.

[02:08] Marno: day,

[02:08] Dave Pengelley: just

[02:08] Marno: which

[02:08] Dave Pengelley: trying

[02:08] Marno: is

[02:08] Dave Pengelley: to

[02:08] Marno: pretty

[02:08] Dave Pengelley: structure

[02:09] Marno: exciting.

[02:09] Dave Pengelley: and organise things. I get seriously, like um half a dozen or more emails a

[02:16] Marno: Changed.

[02:16] Dave Pengelley: week asking to come on the show.

[02:18] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Yeah.

[02:19] Dave Pengelley: Um, so at the moment we're starting with operator stories, and I just send them a calendar link to book in an operating s operator story with me. And we've had, you know, a good average, like one a week have been booking in. So we've been able to get out the Monday. Monday story, which has been nice. I've got the latest

[02:32] Marno: Oh

[02:33] Dave Pengelley: one booked

[02:33] Marno: wow.

[02:33] Dave Pengelley: in for like at 10 p.m. tonight. Because I do give a few late night calendar slots just for the uh the international audience.

[02:40] Marno: Oh

[02:40] Dave Pengelley: But um

[02:41] Marno: interesting.

[02:41] Dave Pengelley: we we get

[02:41] Marno: Okay,

[02:41] Dave Pengelley: a lot of

[02:42] Marno: two

[02:42] Dave Pengelley: international

[02:42] Marno: different

[02:42] Dave Pengelley: people

[02:42] Marno: ones.

[02:42] Dave Pengelley: that

[02:42] Marno: There

[02:42] Dave Pengelley: want to

[02:43] Marno: the

[02:43] Dave Pengelley: come

[02:43] Marno: death

[02:43] Dave Pengelley: on

[02:43] Marno: the

[02:43] Dave Pengelley: the

[02:43] Marno: biggest

[02:43] Dave Pengelley: show,

[02:43] Marno: one so

[02:44] Dave Pengelley: so

[02:44] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: I've

[02:44] Marno: far, I got

[02:44] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: had

[02:44] Marno: a

[02:44] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: a

[02:44] Marno: new

[02:45] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: lot

[02:45] Marno: house,

[02:45] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: of feedback

[02:45] Marno: I got an

[02:45] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: from

[02:45] Marno: office.

[02:46] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: our

[02:46] Marno: So

[02:46] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: international

[02:46] Marno: that those are

[02:46] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: friends

[02:46] Marno: the personal

[02:47] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: and people

[02:47] Marno: wins.

[02:47] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: I used

[02:47] Marno: Um

[02:47] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: to work

[02:48] Marno: having

[02:48] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: with in

[02:48] Marno: my

[02:48] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: the

[02:48] Marno: little

[02:48] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: UK

[02:48] Marno: office

[02:49] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: and

[02:49] Marno: space,

[02:49] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Europe.

[02:49] Marno: which is extraordinary.

[02:51] Dave Pengelley: yeah.

[02:51] Matt: Good

[02:51] Marno: Um

[02:51] Matt: feedback

[02:51] Dave Pengelley: So

[02:52] Marno: and

[02:53] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Sorry?

[02:53] Marno: thank

[02:53] Matt: good

[02:53] Marno: you, thank you.

[02:54] Matt: feedback.

[02:54] Marno: Oh you

[02:54] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Yes,

[02:55] Marno: obviously

[02:55] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: it's

[02:55] Marno: can't see

[02:55] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: all

[02:55] Marno: it.

[02:55] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: great.

[02:56] Marno: It's just the

[02:56] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: No,

[02:56] Marno: wall

[02:56] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: it

[02:56] Marno: behind

[02:56] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: is

[02:56] Marno: me, it's

[02:56] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: all

[02:57] Marno: very

[02:57] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: it's

[02:57] Marno: bland.

[02:57] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: all fabulous.

[02:58] Marno: But um

[02:58] Dave Pengelley: uh

[02:58] Marno: I have a space that

[02:59] Dave Pengelley: yeah

[02:59] Marno: I

[02:59] Dave Pengelley: the

[02:59] Marno: may

[03:00] Dave Pengelley: Thing

[03:00] Marno: My own,

[03:00] Dave Pengelley: worse than

[03:00] Marno: so

[03:00] Dave Pengelley: uh bad

[03:00] Marno: there's nothing

[03:00] Dave Pengelley: feedback

[03:01] Marno: else

[03:01] Dave Pengelley: is

[03:01] Marno: here

[03:01] Dave Pengelley: no

[03:01] Marno: to do

[03:01] Dave Pengelley: feedback

[03:01] Marno: except

[03:02] Dave Pengelley: at all,

[03:02] Marno: for work,

[03:02] Dave Pengelley: right?

[03:02] Marno: which is

[03:02] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Exactly.

[03:02] Marno: fun.

[03:03] Dave Pengelley: Um,

[03:03] Marno: And

[03:03] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: That's

[03:03] Marno: then

[03:03] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: that's the

[03:04] Marno: AI

[03:04] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: worst

[03:04] Marno: side,

[03:04] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: one.

[03:04] Marno: man,

[03:05] Dave Pengelley: the

[03:05] Marno: it's

[03:05] Dave Pengelley: operating stories

[03:05] Marno: this

[03:06] Dave Pengelley: are

[03:06] Marno: morning

[03:06] Dave Pengelley: going well.

[03:06] Marno: is

[03:06] Dave Pengelley: We're

[03:06] Marno: a

[03:06] Dave Pengelley: getting

[03:06] Marno: great

[03:06] Dave Pengelley: some

[03:06] Marno: example.

[03:07] Dave Pengelley: good feedback. Um,

[03:07] Marno: So

[03:07] Dave Pengelley: it's that's you

[03:08] Marno: I

[03:08] Dave Pengelley: know,

[03:08] Marno: was

[03:08] Dave Pengelley: helping

[03:08] Marno: making

[03:08] Dave Pengelley: spread

[03:09] Marno: my

[03:09] Dave Pengelley: us out

[03:09] Marno: to-do

[03:09] Dave Pengelley: across the network.

[03:10] Marno: list

[03:10] Dave Pengelley: A lot

[03:10] Marno: last

[03:10] Dave Pengelley: of

[03:10] Marno: night,

[03:10] Dave Pengelley: these people,

[03:10] Marno: as I

[03:11] Dave Pengelley: they're

[03:11] Marno: do every

[03:11] Dave Pengelley: also

[03:11] Marno: night,

[03:11] Dave Pengelley: in sort

[03:12] Marno: of

[03:12] Dave Pengelley: of

[03:12] Marno: what

[03:12] Dave Pengelley: startup

[03:12] Marno: needs to be

[03:12] Dave Pengelley: mode,

[03:12] Marno: done

[03:12] Dave Pengelley: or

[03:12] Marno: today.

[03:13] Dave Pengelley: they're

[03:13] Marno: And

[03:13] Dave Pengelley: more

[03:13] Marno: as I

[03:13] Dave Pengelley: advanced

[03:13] Marno: was making

[03:14] Dave Pengelley: in

[03:14] Marno: it,

[03:14] Dave Pengelley: their business,

[03:14] Marno: I felt

[03:14] Dave Pengelley: but they're

[03:14] Marno: quite

[03:14] Dave Pengelley: looking for

[03:15] Marno: daunted

[03:15] Dave Pengelley: those PR opportunities.

[03:15] Marno: because the

[03:16] Dave Pengelley: They

[03:16] Marno: list

[03:16] Dave Pengelley: want to be

[03:16] Marno: got

[03:16] Dave Pengelley: out of

[03:16] Marno: rid

[03:16] Dave Pengelley: point and

[03:16] Marno: of

[03:17] Dave Pengelley: say,

[03:17] Marno: the

[03:17] Dave Pengelley: look,

[03:17] Marno: long.

[03:17] Dave Pengelley: that's

[03:17] Marno: I

[03:17] Dave Pengelley: me

[03:17] Marno: limit

[03:17] Dave Pengelley: doing a

[03:18] Marno: myself

[03:18] Dave Pengelley: thing.

[03:18] Marno: to an

[03:18] Dave Pengelley: But

[03:18] Marno: A5

[03:18] Dave Pengelley: building their

[03:19] Marno: piece

[03:19] Dave Pengelley: own

[03:19] Marno: of paper,

[03:19] Dave Pengelley: thing is

[03:20] Marno: it can't

[03:20] Dave Pengelley: is

[03:20] Marno: be more

[03:20] Dave Pengelley: hard.

[03:20] Marno: than this,

[03:21] Dave Pengelley: Like

[03:21] Marno: otherwise,

[03:21] Dave Pengelley: this this

[03:21] Marno: the

[03:21] Dave Pengelley: takes

[03:22] Marno: list

[03:22] Dave Pengelley: effort

[03:22] Marno: gets

[03:22] Dave Pengelley: to,

[03:22] Marno: too long.

[03:22] Dave Pengelley: you know, at the

[03:23] Marno: But

[03:23] Dave Pengelley: moment

[03:23] Marno: as

[03:23] Dave Pengelley: I'm

[03:23] Marno: I was doing

[03:23] Dave Pengelley: putting

[03:24] Marno: it,

[03:24] Dave Pengelley: out

[03:24] Marno: I'm

[03:24] Dave Pengelley: three

[03:24] Marno: like,

[03:24] Dave Pengelley: shows

[03:24] Marno: how am I

[03:24] Dave Pengelley: a

[03:24] Marno: gonna

[03:25] Dave Pengelley: week

[03:25] Marno: get

[03:25] Dave Pengelley: uh

[03:25] Marno: time

[03:25] Dave Pengelley: on

[03:25] Marno: to

[03:26] Dave Pengelley: this

[03:26] Marno: join

[03:26] Dave Pengelley: channel.

[03:26] Marno: in the podcast,

[03:27] Dave Pengelley: Um,

[03:27] Marno: even

[03:27] Matt: That's

[03:27] Marno: if it's

[03:27] Matt: crazy.

[03:27] Dave Pengelley: that

[03:27] Marno: just for

[03:27] Dave Pengelley: doesn't

[03:28] Marno: a little bit,

[03:28] Dave Pengelley: happen

[03:28] Marno: and

[03:28] Dave Pengelley: for

[03:28] Marno: get all

[03:28] Dave Pengelley: free.

[03:29] Marno: this work done and And pack

[03:30] Dave Pengelley: So

[03:30] Marno: to leave the Perth

[03:31] Dave Pengelley: um

[03:31] Marno: tomorrow

[03:31] Dave Pengelley: yeah,

[03:31] Marno: morning.

[03:32] Dave Pengelley: although Monday

[03:32] Marno: And

[03:32] Dave Pengelley: I nearly

[03:33] Marno: then

[03:33] Dave Pengelley: missed

[03:33] Marno: I

[03:33] Dave Pengelley: the operator

[03:33] Marno: might

[03:33] Dave Pengelley: story.

[03:33] Marno: have

[03:34] Dave Pengelley: It

[03:34] Marno: put

[03:34] Dave Pengelley: was

[03:34] Marno: my

[03:34] Dave Pengelley: wild.

[03:34] Marno: body into

[03:34] Dave Pengelley: I

[03:34] Marno: a bit

[03:34] Dave Pengelley: recorded

[03:35] Marno: of an alert

[03:35] Dave Pengelley: it on

[03:35] Marno: state.

[03:35] Dave Pengelley: Friday

[03:35] Marno: So I woke up at

[03:36] Dave Pengelley: with

[03:36] Marno: six this

[03:36] Dave Pengelley: um

[03:36] Marno: morning or 10

[03:37] Dave Pengelley: um

[03:37] Marno: to 6.

[03:37] Dave Pengelley: Corey.

[03:38] Marno: And

[03:38] Dave Pengelley: Great guy.

[03:38] Marno: I

[03:39] Dave Pengelley: It was

[03:39] Marno: did

[03:39] Dave Pengelley: really interesting. We did

[03:39] Marno: the

[03:40] Dave Pengelley: a product

[03:40] Marno: day's

[03:40] Dave Pengelley: based one.

[03:40] Marno: worth

[03:40] Dave Pengelley: He wasn't

[03:40] Marno: of

[03:41] Dave Pengelley: uh

[03:41] Marno: work

[03:41] Dave Pengelley: he's not a consultant,

[03:41] Marno: or like

[03:42] Dave Pengelley: he's

[03:42] Marno: 85%

[03:42] Dave Pengelley: building a product. So it's

[03:43] Marno: of

[03:43] Dave Pengelley: a

[03:43] Marno: it

[03:43] Dave Pengelley: product-based

[03:44] Marno: before

[03:44] Dave Pengelley: operator

[03:44] Marno: 8

[03:44] Dave Pengelley: story,

[03:44] Marno: p.m.

[03:44] Dave Pengelley: um, a

[03:45] Marno: or

[03:45] Dave Pengelley: developer

[03:45] Marno: 8 a.m.

[03:45] Dave Pengelley: tool

[03:45] Marno: sorry.

[03:46] Dave Pengelley: for

[03:46] Marno: Like

[03:46] Dave Pengelley: helping,

[03:46] Marno: I did

[03:46] Dave Pengelley: you

[03:46] Marno: at

[03:46] Dave Pengelley: know,

[03:47] Marno: two

[03:47] Dave Pengelley: that

[03:47] Marno: hours, I

[03:47] Dave Pengelley: manage

[03:47] Marno: did everything

[03:48] Dave Pengelley: your

[03:48] Marno: I

[03:48] Dave Pengelley: agents,

[03:48] Marno: thought I

[03:48] Dave Pengelley: that

[03:48] Marno: wasn't

[03:48] Dave Pengelley: context

[03:48] Marno: gonna get done

[03:49] Dave Pengelley: back and

[03:49] Marno: in

[03:49] Dave Pengelley: forth

[03:49] Marno: the day.

[03:49] Dave Pengelley: as a senior

[03:50] Marno: Just because

[03:50] Dave Pengelley: engineer.

[03:50] Marno: I'm walking around

[03:51] Dave Pengelley: Um,

[03:51] Marno: as I'm

[03:51] Dave Pengelley: you

[03:52] Marno: making

[03:52] Dave Pengelley: should check

[03:52] Marno: breakfast,

[03:52] Dave Pengelley: it out, Matt.

[03:52] Marno: I've got

[03:53] Dave Pengelley: I should

[03:53] Marno: dot,

[03:53] Matt: Yeah,

[03:53] Dave Pengelley: um

[03:53] Matt: yeah,

[03:53] Marno: the

[03:54] Matt: I

[03:54] Dave Pengelley: yeah,

[03:54] Marno: new

[03:54] Matt: really

[03:54] Dave Pengelley: he

[03:54] Marno: AI

[03:54] Matt: I haven't

[03:54] Marno: agent

[03:55] Matt: watched

[03:55] Marno: from

[03:55] Matt: it yet,

[03:55] Marno: ChatGPT,

[03:55] Dave Pengelley: No,

[03:55] Matt: but I really

[03:55] Dave Pengelley: he w

[03:56] Matt: wondered.

[03:56] Dave Pengelley: he

[03:56] Marno: open,

[03:56] Dave Pengelley: he he wants

[03:56] Marno: and I'm

[03:57] Dave Pengelley: he wants

[03:57] Marno: just talking

[03:57] Dave Pengelley: feedback

[03:57] Marno: through it. I'm

[03:58] Dave Pengelley: from

[03:58] Marno: like,

[03:58] Dave Pengelley: real

[03:58] Marno: hey,

[03:58] Dave Pengelley: people

[03:58] Marno: what

[03:58] Dave Pengelley: doing

[03:58] Marno: emails

[03:59] Dave Pengelley: stuff.

[03:59] Marno: need to

[03:59] Dave Pengelley: So

[03:59] Marno: be actually

[04:00] Dave Pengelley: Might

[04:00] Matt: Oh,

[04:00] Marno: Okay,

[04:00] Dave Pengelley: be.

[04:00] Marno: create

[04:00] Matt: real

[04:00] Marno: this

[04:00] Matt: people,

[04:00] Marno: voucher,

[04:01] Matt: I I can't

[04:01] Marno: say this

[04:01] Matt: watch

[04:01] Marno: to

[04:02] Matt: it

[04:02] Marno: this

[04:02] Matt: then,

[04:02] Marno: person,

[04:02] Dave Pengelley: Okay,

[04:02] Matt: sorry.

[04:02] Marno: update

[04:02] Dave Pengelley: sorry.

[04:02] Marno: this

[04:02] Matt: Yeah.

[04:03] Marno: website.

[04:03] Dave Pengelley: Um

[04:03] Marno: It's extraordinary,

[04:04] Dave Pengelley: But I

[04:04] Marno: man.

[04:05] Dave Pengelley: I

[04:05] Marno: Like

[04:05] Dave Pengelley: had

[04:05] Marno: I'm

[04:05] Dave Pengelley: some

[04:05] Marno: able

[04:05] Dave Pengelley: time

[04:05] Marno: to

[04:05] Dave Pengelley: on Friday.

[04:06] Marno: perform,

[04:06] Dave Pengelley: So

[04:06] Marno: like I've

[04:06] Dave Pengelley: straight

[04:06] Marno: got

[04:07] Dave Pengelley: after

[04:07] Marno: a

[04:07] Dave Pengelley: it,

[04:07] Marno: team of

[04:07] Dave Pengelley: I

[04:07] Marno: 20,

[04:07] Dave Pengelley: threw it up

[04:08] Marno: but

[04:08] Dave Pengelley: uh

[04:08] Marno: it's

[04:08] Dave Pengelley: in the

[04:08] Marno: just

[04:08] Dave Pengelley: descript

[04:08] Marno: me in my

[04:09] Dave Pengelley: and

[04:09] Marno: bloody

[04:09] Dave Pengelley: got

[04:09] Marno: PJs

[04:09] Dave Pengelley: the little like

[04:10] Marno: making

[04:10] Dave Pengelley: soundbite

[04:10] Marno: breakfast.

[04:11] Dave Pengelley: bits

[04:11] Marno: It's

[04:11] Dave Pengelley: and edited

[04:11] Marno: awesome.

[04:11] Dave Pengelley: the sound bites at the start for the intro. And I'm like, okay, that's good, I'm done. But then because we were so busy

[04:16] Marno: I

[04:16] Dave Pengelley: talking,

[04:16] Marno: called

[04:17] Dave Pengelley: we

[04:17] Marno: it

[04:17] Dave Pengelley: ran

[04:17] Marno: Poe

[04:17] Dave Pengelley: over an

[04:17] Marno: from

[04:17] Dave Pengelley: hour

[04:18] Marno: Altered

[04:18] Dave Pengelley: and on my

[04:18] Marno: Carbon.

[04:18] Dave Pengelley: descript plan I can't export straight to YouTube if it's

[04:20] Marno: Yeah,

[04:21] Dave Pengelley: over an hour. And I'm

[04:21] Marno: yep.

[04:21] Dave Pengelley: like, Ah, come on, it's like an hour and nine minutes.

[04:24] Marno: Exactly

[04:24] Dave Pengelley: And so

[04:25] Marno: at

[04:25] Dave Pengelley: I was

[04:25] Marno: the

[04:25] Dave Pengelley: like,

[04:25] Marno: hotel

[04:26] Dave Pengelley: Okay,

[04:26] Marno: I

[04:26] Dave Pengelley: I'll

[04:26] Marno: find.

[04:26] Dave Pengelley: get

[04:26] Marno: Because

[04:26] Dave Pengelley: onto

[04:26] Marno: he

[04:26] Dave Pengelley: that

[04:26] Marno: took it

[04:26] Dave Pengelley: later.

[04:27] Marno: turned

[04:27] Dave Pengelley: And

[04:27] Marno: out to

[04:27] Dave Pengelley: then

[04:27] Marno: be

[04:27] Dave Pengelley: all

[04:27] Marno: so

[04:27] Dave Pengelley: of a

[04:27] Marno: friendly,

[04:27] Dave Pengelley: sudden it's

[04:28] Marno: but

[04:28] Dave Pengelley: Monday

[04:28] Marno: then he

[04:28] Dave Pengelley: night

[04:28] Marno: also

[04:28] Dave Pengelley: and

[04:28] Marno: has

[04:28] Dave Pengelley: I'm

[04:28] Marno: this

[04:28] Dave Pengelley: like,

[04:28] Marno: shotgun

[04:28] Dave Pengelley: Oh

[04:29] Marno: and

[04:29] Dave Pengelley: no,

[04:29] Marno: becomes

[04:29] Dave Pengelley: I haven't

[04:29] Marno: real badass.

[04:30] Dave Pengelley: I haven't

[04:30] Marno: Towards the

[04:30] Dave Pengelley: pushed

[04:30] Marno: end of

[04:30] Dave Pengelley: the

[04:30] Marno: the

[04:31] Dave Pengelley: story up.

[04:31] Marno: season.

[04:31] Dave Pengelley: It's Monday.

[04:32] Marno: Yeah.

[04:32] Dave Pengelley: It's like 10, 11 o'clock at night. And my Windows machine

[04:35] Marno: Agreed,

[04:35] Dave Pengelley: here is

[04:35] Marno: agreed.

[04:36] Dave Pengelley: just

[04:36] Marno: Yeah,

[04:36] Dave Pengelley: at capacity.

[04:37] Marno: but it's been a

[04:37] Dave Pengelley: And

[04:37] Marno: big

[04:38] Dave Pengelley: I

[04:38] Marno: one.

[04:38] Dave Pengelley: couldn't

[04:38] Marno: So that's

[04:38] Dave Pengelley: download

[04:38] Marno: helped

[04:38] Dave Pengelley: the

[04:38] Marno: tremendously.

[04:39] Dave Pengelley: sort of the

[04:39] Marno: And then,

[04:39] Dave Pengelley: 10

[04:40] Marno: I mean,

[04:40] Dave Pengelley: gig

[04:40] Marno: outside

[04:40] Dave Pengelley: file that

[04:40] Marno: of that,

[04:40] Dave Pengelley: Descript

[04:41] Marno: the

[04:41] Dave Pengelley: wanted

[04:41] Marno: Plaud,

[04:41] Dave Pengelley: to give me

[04:42] Marno: I think

[04:42] Dave Pengelley: crazy

[04:42] Marno: I had

[04:42] Dave Pengelley: oversized.

[04:42] Marno: it last time I

[04:43] Dave Pengelley: I don't

[04:43] Marno: spoke

[04:43] Dave Pengelley: know

[04:43] Marno: to

[04:43] Matt: Yeah.

[04:43] Marno: you

[04:43] Dave Pengelley: why.

[04:43] Marno: guys,

[04:43] Dave Pengelley: So

[04:43] Marno: the little

[04:44] Dave Pengelley: fortunately

[04:44] Marno: Plaud.

[04:44] Dave Pengelley: I have the Mac mini.

[04:45] Marno: That's

[04:45] Dave Pengelley: So I flipped

[04:45] Marno: that's

[04:45] Dave Pengelley: over the Mac

[04:46] Marno: changed

[04:46] Dave Pengelley: Mini

[04:46] Marno: my

[04:46] Dave Pengelley: that

[04:46] Marno: life.

[04:46] Dave Pengelley: could

[04:46] Marno: It's

[04:46] Dave Pengelley: pull that

[04:46] Marno: my

[04:46] Dave Pengelley: down

[04:47] Marno: second

[04:47] Dave Pengelley: and then

[04:47] Marno: brain.

[04:47] Dave Pengelley: push that

[04:47] Marno: So

[04:47] Dave Pengelley: back up

[04:47] Marno: when

[04:47] Dave Pengelley: to

[04:48] Marno: I

[04:48] Dave Pengelley: YouTube

[04:48] Marno: go to sleep,

[04:48] Dave Pengelley: and just got

[04:48] Marno: my

[04:48] Dave Pengelley: it

[04:48] Marno: phone

[04:48] Dave Pengelley: out like

[04:49] Marno: is

[04:49] Dave Pengelley: at

[04:49] Marno: outside,

[04:49] Dave Pengelley: like 11 30

[04:50] Marno: and

[04:50] Dave Pengelley: on

[04:50] Marno: this

[04:50] Dave Pengelley: Monday

[04:50] Marno: is next

[04:50] Dave Pengelley: night.

[04:50] Marno: to my bed.

[04:51] Matt: Crazy.

[04:51] Marno: So

[04:51] Dave Pengelley: So

[04:51] Marno: when I wake up

[04:52] Dave Pengelley: um

[04:52] Marno: at two o'clock with an

[04:53] Dave Pengelley: but

[04:53] Marno: idea

[04:53] Dave Pengelley: yeah,

[04:53] Marno: or something

[04:54] Dave Pengelley: it's

[04:54] Marno: that needs to

[04:54] Dave Pengelley: it's

[04:54] Marno: be

[04:54] Dave Pengelley: good.

[04:54] Marno: actioned,

[04:55] Dave Pengelley: I mean, I'm trying to

[04:55] Marno: I'll

[04:55] Dave Pengelley: automate

[04:56] Marno: just

[04:56] Dave Pengelley: those

[04:56] Marno: talk

[04:56] Dave Pengelley: processes

[04:56] Marno: to

[04:56] Dave Pengelley: and

[04:56] Marno: that

[04:56] Dave Pengelley: use tools

[04:56] Marno: a

[04:57] Dave Pengelley: like

[04:57] Marno: little

[04:57] Dave Pengelley: Descript

[04:57] Marno: bit.

[04:57] Dave Pengelley: as much as I can to

[04:58] Marno: And

[04:58] Dave Pengelley: take

[04:58] Matt: Yeah.

[04:59] Dave Pengelley: some of the heavy lifting. Out of it,

[05:00] Matt: It's

[05:00] Dave Pengelley: but

[05:01] Matt: funny you

[05:01] Dave Pengelley: um,

[05:01] Matt: talk about capacity.

[05:02] Marno: Oh

[05:02] Matt: Like

[05:02] Marno: no

[05:02] Matt: I

[05:02] Marno: that

[05:03] Matt: got a

[05:03] Marno: would

[05:03] Matt: topic

[05:03] Marno: be

[05:03] Matt: we

[05:03] Marno: an

[05:03] Matt: can

[05:03] Marno: interesting

[05:03] Matt: bring up later.

[05:04] Marno: experiment.

[05:04] Matt: Um,

[05:05] Marno: But

[05:05] Matt: the

[05:05] Marno: um

[05:05] Matt: idea

[05:06] Marno: no

[05:06] Matt: of

[05:06] Marno: I've

[05:06] Matt: that,

[05:06] Marno: not

[05:06] Matt: you

[05:06] Marno: done

[05:06] Matt: know,

[05:06] Marno: I've

[05:07] Matt: your

[05:07] Marno: not done

[05:07] Matt: machines

[05:07] Marno: that yet.

[05:07] Matt: not

[05:08] Marno: But it's

[05:08] Matt: literally

[05:08] Marno: been

[05:08] Dave Pengelley: I

[05:08] Marno: good,

[05:08] Matt: having

[05:08] Dave Pengelley: don't

[05:08] Marno: it's

[05:08] Dave Pengelley: know.

[05:08] Marno: very productive.

[05:08] Matt: enough grunt

[05:09] Marno: It's been

[05:10] Matt: to do the job

[05:10] Marno: very,

[05:10] Matt: you need

[05:10] Marno: very

[05:11] Matt: to do

[05:11] Marno: good.

[05:11] Matt: locally. And sure, there's these really expensive machines, you know, available that you can get, especially with all the cost of RAM and um and storage and all the things. But you know, I I'm considering leasing like a machine and using that leasing subscription cost basically as a comparator to.

[05:29] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Yeah.

[05:30] Matt: running it in the cloud, you know, like what is the economics

[05:32] Dave Pengelley: Yep.

[05:32] Matt: there? So that could be like a topic we can talk about later if

[05:35] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Just

[05:35] Matt: you want.

[05:35] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: put a roll in your LLM, it'll tell you.

[05:38] Matt: Yeah, I know.

[05:40] Dave Pengelley: I mean it'll write Python scripts. The LLM itself isn't real good at math, but um

[05:44] Marno: They're trying to hide

[05:45] Dave Pengelley: yeah,

[05:45] Marno: the relationship.

[05:45] Dave Pengelley: no, I'm I'm I'm hitting RAM and disk

[05:48] Marno: Oh man,

[05:48] Dave Pengelley: based

[05:48] Marno: that's

[05:48] Dave Pengelley: constraints.

[05:49] Marno: good.

[05:49] Dave Pengelley: I had to go and get my um Hermes to review my whole WSL virtual hard drive and try and find where I could reduce space and then run a compaction on it to give me some precious C drive back.

[06:00] Matt: Yep.

[06:00] Dave Pengelley: Um yeah, and then you know things like you go, well, babe, you could have solved it by upgrading your description to the next level. And if this podcast starts making money one day, I would love to do that. But I don't want to just throw money and money and money at the podcast and have it just be a pure cost center. So as we grow, that that would be the dream.

[06:17] Matt: Speaking

[06:17] Dave Pengelley: That's the

[06:18] Matt: of

[06:18] Dave Pengelley: plan.

[06:18] Matt: sponsors, you know, it's a good opportunity to transition to our no, we don't have that

[06:22] Dave Pengelley: No,

[06:22] Matt: yet.

[06:22] Dave Pengelley: we don't have that yet. No.

[06:23] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Well,

[06:24] Dave Pengelley: Um

[06:24] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: I think I think um L'Oreal would be a good sponsor.

[06:27] Matt: L'Oreal

[06:27] Dave Pengelley: L'Oreal for

[06:28] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Yeah.

[06:28] Dave Pengelley: the hair.

[06:30] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Yes. Sorry,

[06:31] Dave Pengelley: Because

[06:31] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Dave, can I say 90% of the comments are about our, you know, when we

[06:36] Dave Pengelley: yeah.

[06:36] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: run off on our business value and

[06:37] Marno: Maybe

[06:37] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: our technical

[06:38] Marno: uh,

[06:38] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: discussions, but there is a bit of commenting about our hair. Now I, as you can see, cut mine because it was getting a bit

[06:45] Dave Pengelley: Yeah,

[06:45] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: crazy.

[06:46] Dave Pengelley: you're looking very

[06:46] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: And people

[06:47] Dave Pengelley: trim.

[06:47] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: are holding their

[06:48] Marno: I'm if not sure you're

[06:48] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: breath, waiting to see when you get your hair cut.

[06:51] Dave Pengelley: Me. No, no, it's not happening. I've decided. Um actually,

[06:54] Marno: not

[06:54] Dave Pengelley: no,

[06:54] Marno: able be do going that. to to

[06:54] Dave Pengelley: it will. I'm not gonna go full pony. I I went pony during COVID and then got a haircut and it was the most atrocious. Haircut that I got scared of hairdressers and then grew it out again. So I went sort of shoulder-length ponytail twice in the in in sort of two years.

[07:07] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Buy your own clippers, do it yourself. That's what I did during COVID. It was

[07:11] Dave Pengelley: No,

[07:11] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: fun.

[07:11] Dave Pengelley: that's ridiculous. I'm not doing that.

[07:12] Matt: I actually

[07:13] Dave Pengelley: Um,

[07:13] Matt: genuinely learned how to cut my own hair during COVID and I haven't been to a barber since I'm not sure.

[07:18] Dave Pengelley: my my one of one of my wife's best friends um has a garage set up. She's a proper hairdresser, and so I go see her and she keeps it tidy. But I I actually am growing it out on the top a little bit at the moment. I'm gonna get that sort of sweep back for for summer.

[07:32] Marno: Yeah.

[07:32] Dave Pengelley: So, you know, so I can do the flick in the pool. That's that's that's the go.

[07:36] Matt: Oh good.

[07:36] Dave Pengelley: That's

[07:36] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Since this is an AI podcast, I thought you might like to see my sense of humor. I was in the barber getting my haircut while my partner was wandering around the shopping center, and I kept sending her pictures like this. Oh, do you like that one? And I was going through.

[07:55] Dave Pengelley: a good one.

[07:55] Matt: That's

[07:55] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: And the

[07:56] Matt: great.

[07:56] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: only thing that tweaked her, because she knows I'm a bit crazy. Was the lady in the background uh really didn't change her position at all as I was AI inging each different.

[08:08] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: I nearly went

[08:09] Dave Pengelley: Yeah.

[08:09] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: full, you know, kojack, but such is life.

[08:12] Dave Pengelley: Yes. Yeah, it's um AI pictures can be fun. Um yes. Oh, we've said we've said the letters. You know what that means.

[08:23] Matt: I still think that

[08:34] Matt: That little clip is actually so good.

[08:36] Dave Pengelley: Yeah, yeah. I I wish the the the the dark gray text was a little brighter and popped off the screen a little bit more,

[08:42] Matt: Yeah.

[08:43] Dave Pengelley: but like for what it is, that's you know, thank you. I think that was was that Grok? Was that VO?

[08:48] Matt: I think it was Vio like a a while ago, yeah.

[08:51] Dave Pengelley: Gemini.

[08:51] Matt: Maybe

[08:52] Dave Pengelley: Is

[08:52] Matt: flow

[08:52] Dave Pengelley: VO

[08:52] Matt: or

[08:52] Dave Pengelley: Gemini?

[08:52] Matt: something like

[08:52] Dave Pengelley: No,

[08:53] Matt: that.

[08:53] Dave Pengelley: VO VO

[08:53] Matt: Yeah.

[08:54] Dave Pengelley: is

[08:54] Matt: Vio's

[08:54] Dave Pengelley: Gemini?

[08:54] Matt: good, yeah.

[08:55] Dave Pengelley: Google, yeah, okay.

[08:57] Matt: Um the with all that kind of video stuff, like I Doing a whole bunch of research just on the side, you know, if I ever get a rainy day, um, to to start doing some video gen stuff and to really, really understand it deeper and better. You know, like the the likes of Hey Gen and then Hyperframes and Hyperframes Studio and then everything to do with Higgs Field, even though you you basically need to have some sort of commercial deal with them, otherwise it's way too expensive. Um, but Higgs field has the thing called katana, which is like it's not video gen, it's video creation with code, and that's basically what people have been doing with clawed motion as well.

[09:30] Dave Pengelley: Yeah, I've seen I've seen people doing like here's whole Blender 3D animated things using Claude and it's all uh like rendered animations using code because we we discussed that a few weeks ago like people say I built this thing with Claude is like Claude doesn't have image gen. What do you mean by that? And sometimes it's outsourcing to another model, sometimes it's just writing, you

[09:47] Matt: Yeah,

[09:47] Dave Pengelley: know,

[09:47] Matt: directly, which kind

[09:48] Dave Pengelley: code.

[09:48] Matt: of

[09:48] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Right

[09:48] Matt: blows my

[09:49] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: language.

[09:49] Matt: mind. Like

[09:49] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Yeah.

[09:50] Matt: so yeah, I was talking to somebody recently about this kind of thing, you know, the idea of you know when you have that spark, when you have that like little moment of inspiration, like what is that thing? Like, how does that work? What do you do with that? And you know, how do you then join that to something else that's already in your brain? That like that's just sort of like my weird addiction. I I I I used to describe it like a butterfly going between flowers, but I always just try and look at these ways of linking things together and and really understanding them deeper. So yeah, one thing that's helping me a lot with that is Grokbot. And I know I've heard that you've been uh working quite a bit on Grokbot recently, Dave.

[10:30] Dave Pengelley: Have before we do that, I just wanted to want to touch on the video and animation and web stuff. I'm just trying to find the the post. Who's the uh the Versel guy? G Guillermo?

[10:39] Matt: Yeah.

[10:39] Dave Pengelley: Guillermo Rosh.

[10:40] Matt: Good luck selling it.

[10:42] Dave Pengelley: Yeah, yeah. Good luck saying it. Um they've released this thing. Uh let me press the right button. There we go. We open source a really fast HTML artifact builder. It's powered by LibFX, making the agent durable, building low level plumbing for V0 to survive server crashes. They've got their little mock-up thing V0 that does little mock-ups.

[11:02] Matt: Yep.

[11:03] Dave Pengelley: So they've created this new thing. And like he said, and he built this floating container in a few minutes, and it's just HTML. So this is a straight HTML and CSS now, and he's got this little bouncing, whooping around container.

[11:14] Matt: Actually that reminds me, there's a there's a a site, um it's good goodcss.com or good dashcss.com.

[11:23] Marno: Yeah.

[11:23] Matt: It's it's another um dev that I follow on X that put that together and it's the idea of like, yeah, a lot of people are using their agents to build stuff now in HTML and CSS, but it's all based on like pri prior knowledge, like you know, previous versions and previous previous iterations. Whereas this like good CSS thing, it shows the agent how to do stuff like that, like where it's actual modern techniques. Yeah, that's the one. Absolutely worth just shoving that at your agent of choice. You don't have to learn it yourself, but if you are intrigued, the page is fantastic because it goes into you know concepts that you would be the case before but what you should use instead Now because it's just better and more efficient.

[12:02] Dave Pengelley: I I love the old um dev mug, which is like I love CSS. Have you seen that?

[12:07] Matt: Maybe

[12:08] Dave Pengelley: Uh uh let me see if I can find it. It's one of those gag gifts that you buy. Uh here's his versions of it. Um

[12:18] Dave Pengelley: because developers and back end notoriously

[12:20] Matt: I'm not sure.

[12:21] Dave Pengelley: hate doing front end.

[12:22] Matt: Yeah, good.

[12:23] Dave Pengelley: So it's all that kind of stuff.

[12:25] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: I like

[12:26] Dave Pengelley: It's

[12:26] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: the reset

[12:26] Dave Pengelley: very funny.

[12:27] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: edition.

[12:28] Dave Pengelley: Uh yeah, I mean I like And I I've I've talked about my valid agenda side, which is full React, but my whole 3D scene thing there and

[12:35] Matt: Prince.

[12:35] Dave Pengelley: how Astro got that right. But there's amazing, it's amazing how much of this animation stuff isn't even using these modern frameworks that you can just do with base HTML and the latest versions of CSS and stuff. Like that bouncing box thing,

[12:47] Matt: Prince.

[12:47] Dave Pengelley: I never would have guessed that was just straight HTML. And

[12:50] Matt: Prince.

[12:50] Dave Pengelley: when they say straight HTML, does that mean they've got

[12:52] Matt: Prince.

[12:52] Dave Pengelley: some JavaScript in there as well? That has to be right. Like

[12:55] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Yeah. Yes,

[12:56] Dave Pengelley: you

[12:56] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: I

[12:56] Dave Pengelley: can't

[12:56] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: think

[12:56] Dave Pengelley: do that

[12:56] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: you're

[12:56] Dave Pengelley: with

[12:57] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: right.

[12:57] Dave Pengelley: no zero JavaScript, just HTML and CSS.

[13:00] Matt: It

[13:00] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Yeah.

[13:00] Matt: depends.

[13:00] Dave Pengelley: Can

[13:00] Matt: Like

[13:01] Dave Pengelley: you?

[13:01] Matt: equally,

[13:01] Dave Pengelley: I don't know. I don't know enough about where that where those stacks have come from. The days where I was doing stuff in Dreamweaver was like the best thing you all was like a little button rollover where you had two images for your button.

[13:11] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Let

[13:12] Matt: I a good idea. that's think

[13:12] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: me um but that's a good the these are good points. I want to talk about the creative process just for a minute, just out of interest, because everyone's so against AI and interfering with the creative process, and we spoke of that last week. So so just the evidence, here is my father who was a well-known Archibald Prize entering professional. This is the the box of crayons that I relieved from him when he passed

[13:35] Matt: I

[13:35] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: away.

[13:35] Matt: thought that was going to be like an urn of ashes

[13:37] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: No,

[13:37] Matt: or

[13:37] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: no,

[13:37] Matt: something.

[13:38] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: it's not his ashes.

[13:41] Dave Pengelley: I know the shops have got them on sale, but

[13:43] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: I'm not that macabre. And when I get an idea,

[13:47] Dave Pengelley: I'm I'm not sure what saying.

[13:48] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: I always do a sketch first. So and Dad taught me to do this. So that was my sketch about about what I wanted that that drawing that I did the other week to be. So then I, you know, I extended that. And I did. And you do cheat a little bit, all artists do. You use rulers and things like that. So that's the other sketch that wanted I wanted to capture my creative idea on. Um, and then of course I scanned that in and I got a few variations. So then I started using AI to create variations of my creativity. And then I did my latest article, which I'm actually kind of proud of on LinkedIn, which was all about let's stop talking AI, let's talk about digital transformation, because that's really what we're doing. AI is just a step in the digital transformation model. And I came up with a concept, a creative concept of what that looks like for us to all think about it. So it, you know, if you look at LinkedIn, that's and it's doing the same sort of diagram using the same crayon drawing, but a few images.

[14:48] Matt: Yeah.

[14:48] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: And for me, it's all a creative process. And the ideas that you come up with, Matt, I know pretty groundbreaking. I know Dave's right on the edge of some of this creativity. And I it occurred to me that the line between what AI generates and doesn't is going to be blurred. And it's really just going to be what comes from your mind. Because

[15:10] Matt: Yeah.

[15:10] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: you look at you look at some of the great artists in the Hollywood era now that are creating animated movies. I mean, for their mind to get it on the page like that and then into a movie, I heard Tom Hanks say it's just amazing what they actually achieve, like Toy Story and that.

[15:28] Matt: Yeah.

[15:28] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: So I think we're going to move into a phase. Where people aren't going to be offended whether I drew that via crayon or whether I actually did that via AI. Because it does come from mind. Now speed to market, as Dave pointed out last week, and my brother, who's a musician, he spent 40 years, you know, perfecting his little finger movements on a guitar. Or I can now get on AI and go, well, here's my voice, pinch some of Led Zeppelin's chords, pinch someone else's chords. Now create the song. That is a big difference in that creative process. But if someone asked me to perform it, I'd be in a bit of trouble, wouldn't I? So I'm

[16:08] Matt: Yeah.

[16:08] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: just, you know, I just find it interesting how I think as things go on, the lines are going to be blurred.

[16:13] Matt: It's um it's so interesting. Uh like we spoke a bit about this last week about

[16:16] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Yeah.

[16:17] Matt: like craftsmen and artisans and like I I really like fantasy books and in those there's always the blacksmith. You know, there's always that that you know they walk through and as the author's describing their the walls of the blacksmiths workshop it's lined with hooks with all these strange shapes of metal and you know pieces of wood hanging out of blocks of metal and you know but that that time in the the in these books there's no bunnings like you can't just run down the shop to get that new tool that you need

[16:44] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: No,

[16:45] Matt: and a lot of people now like if you go to someone's house and they and you go and you're like oh where did you get that from and if they say I made it you're

[16:54] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: no, no.

[16:54] Matt: so surprised because it it like the the the days of like serious Like craft by everyone is is kind of gone. So I like that happened to me last week when you showed up that that drawing. I was like, no way, did you actually draw that? That's amazing. Um, yeah, it's gonna be like that, where you know, we you may not necessarily be offended if somebody uses AI, but you'll be super surprised that they actually did it themselves.

[17:20] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Yeah, and my my dad was as well as an artist and an inventor and uh and a a a brilliant

[17:27] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: society of Australia considers him to be one of Australia's best watercolour artists. He was his creativity didn't stop with the art. So I went to his house once and I said, What are you doing, Dad? He said, I'm going to put a big pond in there. I said, Well, you know, you're in your early 80s. How are you going to do that? And he goes, easy. And all he did was get a lawn mower, turn it on its side, change the blade, and start hoeing through his front lawn. So he could very quickly dig this big pond. And it pulled up the dirt on one side so it looked like a natural thing. And then he Put some grass on creativity comes from everywhere. And as you say, as we say, the tools just change. Speaking of which, what are the AI tools changing today? Because I look at some of these new tools and they say, hey, do you want to capture your holiday? Drop a couple of uh photos in here and we'll do the merge and the fade, add some music and do all of that. But if you look under the covers, these are just very simple UI. And they're really just going onto the back end of most of the ATI tools we know anyway. What do you think about that?

[18:31] Dave Pengelley: Well

[18:31] Matt: Uh

[18:32] Dave Pengelley: this

[18:32] Matt: yeah. I've got four to go

[18:34] Dave Pengelley: yeah,

[18:34] Matt: dad.

[18:34] Dave Pengelley: no, I mean this this comes back to the like some of those tools that Matt was talking about, and and um you mentioned hyperframes and remotion and things like that. That's what I used when I did my little field note in the field with the kangaroos, where I gave the AI some videos and sort of embedded them basically in a web page and then put like little titles and banners and things, and just used that kind of you know, structural technologies in the background in order to clip and edit the things together. Like it was no particular AI. magic in that other than it understanding the transcript and working out where to cut the videos and how to which order to put them in. But the actual mechanical of putting it together was just using underlying web building blocks. I mean speaking of kangaroos, I just threw in the adversel tool. I said ask

[19:17] Marno: I

[19:17] Dave Pengelley: for a hopping

[19:17] Marno: wonder

[19:18] Dave Pengelley: kangaroo. That's I just said make a hopping kangaroo. That's literally what I said. And it gave me this straight away. And I've opened the inspect

[19:25] Marno: how much

[19:25] Dave Pengelley: panel

[19:25] Marno: I I'm a be going little think to a bit of

[19:26] Dave Pengelley: and it does have script

[19:26] Marno: hundred percent.

[19:27] Dave Pengelley: sections as well as just divs.

[19:30] Marno: It's

[19:30] Dave Pengelley: And

[19:30] Marno: I

[19:30] Dave Pengelley: spans

[19:30] Marno: I wonder

[19:31] Dave Pengelley: lots

[19:31] Marno: have

[19:31] Dave Pengelley: of

[19:31] Marno: other

[19:31] Dave Pengelley: script

[19:32] Marno: of

[19:32] Dave Pengelley: sections.

[19:32] Marno: you

[19:32] Dave Pengelley: So when

[19:32] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Did

[19:32] Marno: seen

[19:32] Dave Pengelley: it says

[19:33] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: you

[19:33] Dave Pengelley: base

[19:33] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: leave the

[19:33] Dave Pengelley: HTML,

[19:33] Marno: a

[19:34] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: did

[19:34] Marno: couple

[19:34] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: you

[19:34] Marno: points

[19:34] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: leave the uh

[19:34] Marno: there.

[19:34] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: neck out of the

[19:35] Marno: Going

[19:35] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: hopping

[19:35] Marno: back

[19:36] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: kangaroo?

[19:36] Marno: a little

[19:36] Dave Pengelley: I

[19:36] Marno: bit,

[19:36] Dave Pengelley: just said

[19:37] Marno: Richard,

[19:37] Dave Pengelley: make a hopping

[19:37] Marno: you

[19:37] Dave Pengelley: kangaroo.

[19:38] Marno: were talking

[19:38] Dave Pengelley: Like it's

[19:38] Marno: about

[19:38] Dave Pengelley: better than that

[19:39] Marno: when

[19:39] Dave Pengelley: doji

[19:39] Marno: people go

[19:39] Dave Pengelley: svg

[19:40] Marno: to work.

[19:40] Dave Pengelley: I got

[19:40] Marno: I

[19:40] Dave Pengelley: from

[19:41] Marno: have

[19:41] Dave Pengelley: ChatGPT

[19:41] Marno: a strong feeling

[19:42] Dave Pengelley: the other

[19:42] Marno: that

[19:42] Dave Pengelley: week.

[19:42] Marno: that's not going

[19:43] Dave Pengelley: Um,

[19:43] Marno: to be a

[19:43] Dave Pengelley: because

[19:43] Marno: thing

[19:44] Dave Pengelley: it's

[19:44] Marno: anymore.

[19:44] Dave Pengelley: it's

[19:44] Marno: I think

[19:44] Dave Pengelley: just

[19:44] Marno: it's

[19:44] Dave Pengelley: use

[19:44] Marno: everyone's

[19:45] Dave Pengelley: shapes,

[19:45] Marno: gonna

[19:45] Dave Pengelley: right? It's

[19:45] Marno: have their

[19:45] Dave Pengelley: like

[19:45] Marno: own

[19:46] Dave Pengelley: a

[19:46] Marno: business

[19:46] Dave Pengelley: few ovals,

[19:46] Marno: or

[19:46] Dave Pengelley: a few

[19:47] Marno: some

[19:47] Dave Pengelley: ellipses,

[19:47] Marno: sort

[19:47] Dave Pengelley: a triangle.

[19:47] Marno: of value

[19:48] Dave Pengelley: So

[19:48] Marno: that they

[19:48] Dave Pengelley: it's

[19:48] Marno: are contributing

[19:49] Dave Pengelley: actually

[19:49] Marno: to

[19:49] Dave Pengelley: all

[19:49] Marno: society.

[19:50] Dave Pengelley: cons all

[19:50] Marno: I

[19:50] Dave Pengelley: things

[19:50] Marno: fully

[19:50] Dave Pengelley: considered

[19:51] Marno: agree

[19:51] Dave Pengelley: for

[19:51] Marno: that

[19:51] Dave Pengelley: something

[19:51] Marno: money

[19:51] Dave Pengelley: that

[19:51] Marno: is

[19:51] Dave Pengelley: was

[19:51] Marno: not going

[19:52] Dave Pengelley: built

[19:52] Marno: to mean

[19:52] Dave Pengelley: in three

[19:52] Marno: anything.

[19:52] Dave Pengelley: seconds, not

[19:53] Marno: But

[19:53] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Yes,

[19:53] Dave Pengelley: too bad.

[19:54] Marno: on

[19:54] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: I

[19:54] Marno: the

[19:54] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: think

[19:54] Marno: topic

[19:54] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: it's awesome,

[19:55] Marno: of that,

[19:55] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: well

[19:55] Marno: um

[19:55] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: done.

[19:55] Marno: a

[19:55] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Absolutely.

[19:56] Marno: couple notes

[19:56] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: You

[19:56] Marno: here.

[19:56] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: know, just

[19:56] Marno: There's

[19:57] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: I'll

[19:57] Marno: the

[19:57] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: I'll show

[19:57] Marno: Anthropic

[19:57] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: up in a second on the

[19:58] Marno: launched

[19:58] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: creative

[19:58] Marno: their

[19:59] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: side,

[19:59] Marno: public

[19:59] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: but

[19:59] Marno: fund.

[20:00] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: You

[20:00] Marno: Of

[20:00] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: know,

[20:00] Marno: like

[20:00] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: going

[20:00] Marno: 5%

[20:00] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: back to

[20:01] Marno: of

[20:01] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Richard

[20:01] Marno: their

[20:01] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Branson,

[20:02] Marno: revenue

[20:02] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: who

[20:02] Marno: or

[20:02] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: launched

[20:02] Marno: profits

[20:02] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Tubular

[20:03] Marno: or something like that

[20:03] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Bells

[20:03] Marno: is going

[20:04] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: with

[20:04] Marno: to

[20:04] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Mike

[20:04] Marno: go

[20:04] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Oldfield,

[20:04] Marno: to the

[20:04] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: and I

[20:05] Marno: world,

[20:05] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: think that

[20:05] Marno: which

[20:05] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: was

[20:05] Marno: is

[20:05] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: his

[20:05] Marno: fascinating.

[20:05] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: first big

[20:06] Marno: And

[20:06] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: record.

[20:06] Marno: then the other

[20:07] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: He

[20:07] Marno: topic

[20:07] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: pretended

[20:07] Marno: that

[20:07] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: to

[20:07] Marno: I'd

[20:07] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: be a

[20:08] Marno: love

[20:08] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: big

[20:08] Marno: to get

[20:08] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: record

[20:08] Marno: your thoughts

[20:08] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: company, but

[20:09] Marno: on

[20:09] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: used

[20:09] Marno: is

[20:09] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: a phone

[20:10] Marno: Liam's

[20:10] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: box

[20:10] Marno: latest

[20:10] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: down the road

[20:11] Marno: video

[20:11] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: and

[20:11] Marno: talking

[20:11] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: rang people

[20:12] Marno: about

[20:12] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: and

[20:12] Marno: how

[20:12] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: produced

[20:12] Marno: we went from

[20:12] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: this

[20:13] Marno: a

[20:13] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: and got

[20:13] Marno: model

[20:13] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: this

[20:13] Marno: to

[20:13] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: out.

[20:13] Marno: a harness

[20:14] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: When the

[20:14] Marno: and now

[20:14] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: MOOC

[20:14] Marno: we're going to

[20:15] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: synthesizer

[20:15] Marno: a platform.

[20:16] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: came out in the

[20:16] Marno: And

[20:16] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: 70s,

[20:16] Marno: it's whoever

[20:17] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: a lot

[20:17] Marno: gets

[20:17] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: of artists

[20:18] Marno: to develop

[20:18] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: complained

[20:18] Marno: that platform

[20:19] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: and

[20:19] Marno: and

[20:19] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: said

[20:19] Marno: then

[20:19] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: that's

[20:19] Marno: facilitate

[20:19] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: cheating.

[20:20] Marno: that

[20:20] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: That's

[20:20] Marno: platform

[20:20] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: not

[20:20] Marno: towards

[20:20] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: really

[20:21] Marno: small

[20:21] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: music.

[20:21] Marno: businesses.

[20:21] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: It's just a

[20:22] Marno: What

[20:22] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: computer

[20:22] Marno: are your thoughts

[20:22] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: making

[20:23] Marno: on

[20:23] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: the

[20:23] Marno: that?

[20:23] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: music.

[20:23] Marno: And who

[20:23] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Of

[20:23] Marno: do

[20:23] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: course,

[20:24] Marno: you

[20:24] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: we

[20:24] Marno: think

[20:24] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: don't

[20:24] Marno: is

[20:24] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: even

[20:24] Marno: going to

[20:24] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: think

[20:24] Marno: win

[20:24] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: about

[20:25] Marno: that race?

[20:25] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: that today.

[20:25] Marno: Is that going

[20:26] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: It

[20:26] Marno: to

[20:26] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: just

[20:26] Marno: be

[20:26] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: happens.

[20:26] Marno: the big Google Labs or is that going to be a private company? Is that going to be

[20:30] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: You

[20:30] Marno: the

[20:30] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: wanna

[20:30] Marno: group

[20:30] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: know what

[20:30] Marno: of us,

[20:31] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: a move

[20:31] Marno: the

[20:31] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: synthesizer

[20:31] Marno: start of our

[20:32] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: is,

[20:32] Marno: own

[20:32] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: don't

[20:32] Marno: platform.

[20:32] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: you?

[20:33] Marno: Um

[20:33] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Attachment

[20:33] Matt: Yeah, yeah.

[20:34] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: to the keyboard.

[20:34] Marno: very interesting

[20:34] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Yes, okay,

[20:35] Marno: points.

[20:35] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: good.

[20:36] Matt: Yeah. It's it is fascinating though. And and

[20:38] Marno: I

[20:38] Matt: I I

[20:39] Marno: was

[20:39] Matt: genuinely

[20:39] Marno: I was hoping for

[20:40] Matt: believe

[20:40] Marno: so, but go for it.

[20:42] Matt: that the line that people try and draw doesn't actually exist.

[20:49] Matt: It's it's like a it's like a you know us and them thing, but it's really not because the line is absolutely not straight, you know, it might be some sort Of you know, it's like the difference between, you know, if you look at the Australian borders between states, and then you have a look at the one between uh New South and Vic, it's it's straight, straight, straight, straight, and then hits the Murray and it does this. Uh, like I think that's more like the case. It's very, very blurred. And the more you try and label it, the more you just make yourself angry. Like, I think it's just the idea of create what you want to create, like, value is value. It doesn't really matter how you do it.

[21:24] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: That's

[21:25] Dave Pengelley: I think

[21:25] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: true.

[21:25] Dave Pengelley: yeah, I don't know, there there's different levels of it, I think, and what what we're s feeling and I feel

[21:31] Marno: Yeah.

[21:31] Dave Pengelley: the sort of um sick of n sick of itnessness is you know some of the the the pro statements that arise on LinkedIn where we we're always informed what the important part is. Like that that that's really like there used to be the M-dash with the tell. Now if you're reading some text and it goes

[21:47] Marno: Yeah.

[21:48] Dave Pengelley: the important part is it's like well that's

[21:50] Marno: I

[21:50] Dave Pengelley: AI.

[21:50] Marno: feel like

[21:50] Dave Pengelley: AI

[21:51] Marno: a

[21:51] Dave Pengelley: wants

[21:51] Marno: fair

[21:51] Dave Pengelley: to make

[21:51] Marno: assessment.

[21:51] Dave Pengelley: sure you know what the

[21:52] Marno: Yeah,

[21:52] Dave Pengelley: important part

[21:52] Marno: because

[21:52] Dave Pengelley: was

[21:52] Marno: it's

[21:52] Dave Pengelley: and that it's

[21:53] Marno: yeah,

[21:53] Dave Pengelley: not this,

[21:53] Marno: what's

[21:53] Dave Pengelley: it's that we've

[21:54] Marno: the

[21:54] Dave Pengelley: had

[21:54] Marno: point?

[21:54] Dave Pengelley: that that that

[21:55] Marno: Hmm,

[21:55] Dave Pengelley: comparative for

[21:55] Marno: it's

[21:55] Dave Pengelley: a while,

[21:55] Marno: commoditized,

[21:55] Dave Pengelley: but it always

[21:56] Marno: right?

[21:56] Dave Pengelley: sort of

[21:56] Marno: Software

[21:56] Dave Pengelley: seems

[21:57] Marno: is

[21:57] Dave Pengelley: to

[21:57] Marno: commoditized,

[21:57] Dave Pengelley: make

[21:57] Marno: it means

[21:57] Dave Pengelley: sure

[21:58] Marno: nothing

[21:58] Dave Pengelley: it wants

[21:58] Marno: now.

[21:58] Dave Pengelley: you to know what the important part is it's like what were the last three paragraphs for if you like you're just now gonna tell me what the important part is like

[22:04] Matt: Yeah.

[22:04] Dave Pengelley: little things like that i'm I'm sick of and you go

[22:09] Dave Pengelley: I just would like to see what people write I'd rather like human slop

[22:13] Matt: I

[22:13] Dave Pengelley: and

[22:13] Matt: actually

[22:13] Dave Pengelley: bad grammar

[22:14] Matt: yeah I to to all of our listeners from list uh LinkedIn, this is absolutely not a lot not a a kick at

[22:20] Dave Pengelley: yes

[22:20] Matt: you at

[22:21] Dave Pengelley: it

[22:21] Matt: all.

[22:21] Dave Pengelley: is all of

[22:22] Matt: But

[22:22] Dave Pengelley: you

[22:22] Matt: uh to the to the people of LinkedIn that all they do is copy and paste their agent answers, please don't. Like it's

[22:29] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: I agree.

[22:29] Matt: so Frustrating. And like if you have some sort of bot thing that just comments automatically for you, like please don't like just delete your account. Like, you don't need to do that. It is absolutely useless. Like, I saw I don't often use LinkedIn for that reason. It just makes me ill. Um, but I saw one of our uh one of our friends, I'm not sure if she's been on the show before, um, a friend from The Accelerator, and with the got a new position at a at a company, and you know LinkedIn says, Oh, so and so's got a new position. I went, I clicked on it because I'm Like, I've never really been into one of those things before. Assume it's like Facebook, you know, you just get these notifications. And every single one of the comments, or like 90% of them, were from those automatic, you know, predetermined little response buttons that you get, which is like a congratulations with a with the R symbol. And I was like, look, I'm gonna just quickly write my own uh personal handwritten message here, you know, one of the few. Uh congratulations, looks like that's gonna be a good role, blah, blah, blah. You know, the The the ten seconds that it took me to type that out rather than just to mindlessly click something useless that doesn't mean anything to that person. Like

[23:37] Dave Pengelley: It's

[23:37] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: We're

[23:37] Matt: that's

[23:38] Dave Pengelley: it's tough.

[23:38] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: back.

[23:38] Dave Pengelley: I mean

[23:38] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: We're

[23:39] Dave Pengelley: I

[23:39] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: back.

[23:39] Dave Pengelley: I've I've tr I've tried LinkedIn them both ways. I've tried doing everything's handcrafted for a month and and you know, I will fight the system and then I've gone, it doesn't matter. I'll just get AI to write every post. I'll just copy and paste them. Nothing matters.

[23:52] Matt: I think. what

[23:52] Dave Pengelley: Like as far as the engagement, I think there's there's just

[23:56] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: It's

[23:56] Dave Pengelley: yeah.

[23:57] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: like your

[23:57] Dave Pengelley: Um

[23:57] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: twenty first. It's like your

[23:58] Dave Pengelley: but

[23:58] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: twenty first

[23:59] Dave Pengelley: the

[23:59] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: birthday.

[24:00] Dave Pengelley: The

[24:00] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: I

[24:00] Dave Pengelley: only

[24:00] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: got

[24:00] Dave Pengelley: thing that

[24:00] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: twenty

[24:00] Dave Pengelley: helps is

[24:01] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: bottles.

[24:01] Dave Pengelley: if you actually if if you make people do clickbait, if you make people like write the code, like I have the secret, I can make your groc bots earn you millions of dollars, write bot in the comments, then you get five million bot comments, regardless of whether you're actually selling the truth or a lie. But that seems to be the way you have to do that because that just baits the algorithm going, oh, lots of people commented on that

[24:21] Marno: I

[24:21] Dave Pengelley: one.

[24:21] Marno: was more just

[24:22] Dave Pengelley: That's

[24:22] Marno: curious about yeah

[24:23] Matt: As

[24:23] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Our

[24:23] Marno: the

[24:23] Matt: a

[24:23] Marno: general

[24:23] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: brains

[24:23] Matt: uh

[24:24] Marno: thoughts

[24:24] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: our

[24:24] Marno: of

[24:24] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: brains

[24:24] Marno: UBI.

[24:25] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: are getting adjusted

[24:25] Marno: Will that

[24:26] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: to

[24:26] Marno: matter

[24:26] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: it.

[24:26] Marno: at

[24:26] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: And

[24:26] Marno: all,

[24:26] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: like

[24:26] Marno: or

[24:26] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: on

[24:26] Marno: would

[24:27] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: your

[24:27] Marno: there

[24:27] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: twenty-first

[24:27] Marno: just be a

[24:27] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: birthday,

[24:27] Marno: massive

[24:28] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: I was about to say, on my

[24:29] Marno: again?

[24:29] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: twenty first birthday.

[24:30] Marno: Polarization

[24:30] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: I think I got

[24:31] Marno: between

[24:31] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: 20 bottles

[24:31] Marno: who

[24:32] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: of

[24:32] Marno: lives

[24:32] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: port

[24:32] Marno: in

[24:32] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: wine

[24:32] Marno: different

[24:33] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: or port.

[24:33] Marno: different

[24:34] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: So

[24:34] Marno: classes.

[24:34] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: clearly those 20 people just grabbed or re-gifted the same port that they got. And but in that is there's some nuggets of gold where someone gave me a real toy or something that I they know I wanted. And and I think the world, uh we our brains naturally adjust. And when we see a cut and paste or bot response, it's almost like they didn't respond at all. And we don't notice it. But when someone like you, Matt, writes, Oh, a heartfelt congratulations, I think it'll be great. I note that and it's it's raising the level of contact to an appropriate level, and those that copy, they just disappear into the background.

[25:09] Matt: I I think it's it's such a failing of the people that actually build the platforms. You know, I I uh I've recently been using X a lot, and you know, people have opinions of the SpaceX team and and you know Elon's leadership in general.

[25:23] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: I love

[25:23] Matt: Um

[25:23] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: it, look.

[25:24] Matt: but they like especially when it was Nikita, I don't know who's looking after it now, I haven't really kept track of it, but They focus on really down voting and downgrading that degeneracy of just automated

[25:37] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Meaning,

[25:37] Matt: responses and that sort of thing. Where, you know, if you do the like comment the word and you know, I'll send you the thing on X, it just gets instantly just algorithmically plummeted

[25:49] Dave Pengelley: You

[25:49] Matt: to

[25:49] Dave Pengelley: you

[25:49] Matt: the bottom.

[25:49] Dave Pengelley: know you know what used to get me though, and I don't know, I don't spend as much time on X now as I did a year a few years ago. But you've got you get people posting the 10 second video clip and going, did you notice it? Or And that's like, notice what? Like,

[26:02] Marno: I'm

[26:02] Dave Pengelley: and

[26:02] Marno: here

[26:02] Dave Pengelley: there was

[26:03] Marno: for

[26:03] Dave Pengelley: that

[26:03] Marno: it.

[26:03] Dave Pengelley: whole baiting thing to go in and comment on you see you seeing the clever thing. And you know, it was all very like

[26:11] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: It does

[26:11] Dave Pengelley: um.

[26:11] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: bore me after the first two times.

[26:14] Dave Pengelley: Yeah,

[26:14] Matt: Yeah.

[26:14] Dave Pengelley: but people do it, and there were massive accounts. And because they were massive accounts with like, you know, a couple million followers, they would always get good engagement. So they continue to get more engagement and they would be the ones highly monetized, getting X payments. Anyway. Um on the On the speed to market thing and and will people care? Um I think it

[26:36] Marno: I

[26:36] Dave Pengelley: depends

[26:36] Marno: feel like

[26:37] Dave Pengelley: on

[26:37] Marno: I'm

[26:37] Dave Pengelley: the

[26:37] Marno: already doing

[26:37] Dave Pengelley: quality

[26:37] Marno: that for

[26:38] Dave Pengelley: and

[26:38] Marno: myself.

[26:38] Dave Pengelley: the caliber

[26:38] Marno: Sorry Matt.

[26:39] Dave Pengelley: of the

[26:39] Marno: I

[26:39] Dave Pengelley: thing,

[26:39] Marno: I

[26:39] Dave Pengelley: right?

[26:39] Marno: I

[26:40] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Okay.

[26:40] Dave Pengelley: I think

[26:40] Marno: feel

[26:40] Dave Pengelley: that's what it comes down to. If

[26:41] Marno: that's

[26:41] Dave Pengelley: people are just

[26:41] Marno: exactly

[26:41] Dave Pengelley: one-shotting

[26:41] Marno: what I'm

[26:42] Dave Pengelley: stuff

[26:42] Marno: doing

[26:42] Dave Pengelley: and

[26:42] Marno: now.

[26:42] Dave Pengelley: the AI did

[26:42] Marno: Yeah,

[26:43] Dave Pengelley: all

[26:43] Marno: I

[26:43] Dave Pengelley: the

[26:43] Marno: have. Like

[26:43] Dave Pengelley: work,

[26:44] Marno: mine

[26:44] Dave Pengelley: then

[26:44] Marno: schedules

[26:44] Dave Pengelley: that's

[26:44] Marno: my calendar,

[26:45] Dave Pengelley: where people

[26:45] Marno: it

[26:45] Dave Pengelley: get

[26:45] Marno: tells

[26:45] Dave Pengelley: really

[26:45] Marno: me

[26:45] Dave Pengelley: upset.

[26:46] Marno: what work

[26:46] Dave Pengelley: If

[26:46] Marno: I'm

[26:46] Dave Pengelley: it's

[26:46] Marno: doing

[26:46] Dave Pengelley: clearly

[26:46] Marno: when,

[26:47] Dave Pengelley: been human-influenced

[26:47] Marno: what's the priorities

[26:48] Dave Pengelley: and human-inspired,

[26:48] Marno: for today, who am I

[26:49] Dave Pengelley: then

[26:49] Marno: calling,

[26:49] Dave Pengelley: I think

[26:50] Marno: and um I don't get

[26:51] Dave Pengelley: maybe

[26:51] Marno: time off

[26:52] Dave Pengelley: people

[26:52] Marno: because

[26:52] Dave Pengelley: are

[26:52] Marno: you're

[26:52] Dave Pengelley: going to

[26:52] Marno: running

[26:52] Dave Pengelley: be more

[26:52] Marno: in business.

[26:53] Dave Pengelley: generous

[26:53] Marno: So

[26:53] Dave Pengelley: towards it

[26:53] Marno: there's

[26:54] Dave Pengelley: or more

[26:54] Marno: no

[26:54] Dave Pengelley: accepting

[26:54] Marno: real

[26:54] Dave Pengelley: of

[26:54] Marno: difference.

[26:54] Dave Pengelley: it, or like just not they can they're not sure. Was this all AI? Was it not? Does it matter?

[27:00] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Here's a

[27:00] Matt: Yeah.

[27:00] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: trick,

[27:01] Marno: Oh,

[27:01] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: here's a

[27:01] Marno: fair

[27:01] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: tip.

[27:02] Marno: point. Yeah, I

[27:02] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: If

[27:02] Marno: don't get

[27:02] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: it's

[27:03] Marno: I don't

[27:03] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: generated

[27:03] Marno: get told

[27:03] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: by a

[27:04] Marno: off

[27:04] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: human,

[27:04] Marno: if I don't

[27:04] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: whether

[27:04] Marno: do it.

[27:05] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: it had

[27:05] Marno: I just

[27:05] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: AI

[27:05] Marno: reschedule

[27:05] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: tools helping them,

[27:06] Marno: it.

[27:06] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: it is much more likely to connect to a human, like a comedian that tells a joke that we can equate to in our lives. And so that's what it's all about. So if you have a computer generating content entirely without much human input, it's not going to do do very well, I don't think. But if it's got a human in there saying, I think the world wants to see this or needs this, then it'll do a lot better.

[27:30] Matt: where it's it should become from. It should be used. So, you know, you you create the original and then you can spin off variations like your own thing, Richard. That that that to me is where the value is. Like value is a funny word too, right? Like the perception of value is so broad. You know, it's the same as like this is going to be a wild analogy by the way, but the the concept of spam, you know, like everyone kind of knows what spam is, but then if you all of a sudden start talking about email and SMS marketing and talking about you know domain reputations and sending rep and how do I make sure I'm not getting marked as spam don't send spam like it's such a fantastic um thing that

[28:12] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Oh,

[28:12] Matt: gets people

[28:13] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: simple

[28:13] Matt: so in

[28:13] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: answer.

[28:14] Matt: like you know there's like value

[28:16] Marno: Likewise,

[28:16] Matt: is valuable

[28:17] Marno: gentlemen,

[28:17] Matt: and

[28:17] Marno: let's

[28:18] Matt: yeah

[28:18] Marno: make sure

[28:18] Matt: there's

[28:18] Marno: we talk

[28:18] Matt: perception

[28:18] Marno: as we go

[28:19] Matt: and

[28:19] Marno: through

[28:19] Matt: it

[28:19] Marno: the

[28:19] Matt: it's

[28:19] Marno: cutscene

[28:20] Matt: different for everyone

[28:20] Marno: again.

[28:20] Matt: and I guess that's the case with spam too you know it either is or it isn't but there's kind

[28:25] Marno: Oh,

[28:25] Matt: of a pretty

[28:25] Marno: no.

[28:25] Matt: uh indicative moment where it feels like it is so Yeah, I don't know, it's a it's a weird one. It's a weird topic.

[28:32] Dave Pengelley: That's that's the hard thing with any cold outreach and cold outbound, right? It's like, how much is this gonna feel like spam? How much like you might believe you've got a genuine offer, but some people's perception is that's just why am I someone else DMing me about their special offer to 5x my business by implementing robots?

[28:50] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: I I had a very interesting scenario about that. I won't go into too much detail, but I was hunted down on Facebook and LinkedIn to be a part of a reality. TV program, and I won't say which one. And

[29:02] Marno: Ha

[29:03] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: a

[29:03] Marno: ha

[29:03] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: young

[29:03] Marno: ha.

[29:03] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: lady

[29:04] Matt: The

[29:04] Marno: Say

[29:04] Matt: battle.

[29:04] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: who

[29:04] Marno: up.

[29:05] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: had an Asian last name and had a Eurasian look and sent me these notes on Facebook and LinkedIn. I thought, you know, being a middle-aged white male, we get thousands of those if anyone's not prepared to admit that you just get all this flood of people reaching out to you, and none of them are real or all. And this one I thought was definitely fake. So I wasn't too delicate in rejecting the event. And then eventually. A phone number came and I went, hang on, spam people don't really send phone numbers. And I I rang the young lady and she said, Yes, I'm not a bot, I'm not spam, I'm real. I thought I'd better send you my numbers so you know that. And she said it had been very hard for her because of her background. People just assumed it was someone, you know, in the Asian quarter doing an outreach program, just trying to target people. But it was actually a real, uh, a real request. But because my children, I didn't do the reality program. But it was interesting that I immediately thought it was spam.

[30:00] Matt: Yeah. That that knee-jack reaction that we get. Like I had a solar salesperson come to my door the other day. And you know, I was deep in flow with agents, and I get that knock, and already I'm in a bad mood because of that, right? So

[30:14] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Okay.

[30:14] Matt: anyway, I go out the front and and they got there were two young fellas, super kind, really, really like you know, on point, like the exact people that you want to be doing this kind of sales call, uh, you know, door to door. And I always human. I always have a good chat with them, but you can't like I find it almost impossible to re remove my prickliness. You know, I just want to stand there casually and have a chat with these people and say, Yeah, sorry, I'm not interested. But that I I end up getting sweaty palms. And at the end, the guy that ended up saying, like, look, we'll just we'll leave it for now. You know, thanks for your time. And he put his hand out to give it a shake. And I was like, No, I'm not shaking your hand. And

[30:54] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Yeah.

[30:55] Matt: it was because my hand was so sweaty. I'm like, I feel gross. And but then he's looked at me weird like. you know oh you rude bastard and then sort of like walked away

[31:03] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: That's

[31:03] Matt: so

[31:03] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: your empathy. That's your empathy cheating you, Matt, and that's what it does. And that's what the good people rely on and some of the bad people rely on your empathy to keep you on the hook. Sorry,

[31:11] Matt: you know

[31:12] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Dave,

[31:12] Matt: what's

[31:12] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: did

[31:12] Matt: crazy

[31:12] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: I cut

[31:12] Matt: though

[31:13] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: you

[31:13] Matt: like

[31:13] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: off?

[31:13] Matt: if I had have gotten that through an email you know something about hey like yeah we're reaching out to people in your area about solar I probably would have responded to it and I probably would have gotten like you know uh towards the quoting stage at least to just for my own research. But this dude was like pushing to come into the house and look at the inverter and sit down and talk about like a plan. I'm like, mate, I kind of just want to do the research and like learn it. Like

[31:41] Dave Pengelley: Yeah.

[31:41] Matt: I don't need to be closed right now,

[31:43] Dave Pengelley: So

[31:43] Matt: you know,

[31:44] Dave Pengelley: some

[31:44] Matt: anyway.

[31:44] Dave Pengelley: of them I've I've seen mobs where they come around and they just check when you're gonna be home because they're gonna have a guy in the area. So they kinda send out their their their um BDR first, uh to to sort of vet and and check availability of people before they send their actual accounting exec through. Um, which is an interesting way. No, you you need a camera, Matt. Like I I had to run away and turn my camera off from the show a minute ago because um posty came to the door and my wife was expecting a package that I'd assigned for. So I was like, oh, I've got to get that one, otherwise, they're gonna take it back down to the thing. I'm gonna have to go in and it's a whole hassle. So apologies that I I stepped away for a moment during your story. Um, but you know, I look at that, and if it's you know someone wearing a lanyan on and I'm busy working, I go, Yeah, I don't need to answer that. I'll just leave them to stand there awkwardly for 45 seconds until they walk away.

[32:29] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Which

[32:29] Dave Pengelley: Everyone's

[32:29] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: is the only

[32:29] Dave Pengelley: happy.

[32:30] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: World of AI, isn't it? The research and the reaching out to touch us and get in contact with us. The new research that is out now is that 87 to 98% of people will have done research, as Matt says, on what they think they need before they even talk to a salesperson or someone in a business. And so that whole old days of cold calling or door knocking, which was the human way of reaching out, inefficient but much more well-received at times, has now completely changed. And with AI, They can cut up the market, the individual, the data, and the people. And you'll be thinking, oh, maybe I need something. And as soon as you start thinking it, your phone puts an ad up. I had a guy, um, he may be listening or not, I won't say his company's name. He wanted me to join his company, very smart guy, call him a savant. But I was walking along the beach and I just quit a job. I was working on the beach across the road here with my dog, and his phone rings, and I didn't know the number, but being the sales and marketing person. I am. I don't care if I don't know. I always answer. If you're not meant to be calling me, you will learn, as Matt was alluding to very quickly from me, and it might not be soft. Um, and this guy goes, Richard, I'm guessing you've just left your job and I had not published it to anyone. And I'm guessing you want a job like this. And this guy had his AI data working so well, he said to me, I've started this company, and I think with 99% accuracy, I can target executives who are wanting to leave their job. target executives who are going to leave their job and I can target companies who know they're about to hire someone in this space. And so he has his reach out almost to a fine, fine point. And I was blown away because here am I walking the dog on the beach and someone rang me and just told me my story and they were right.

[34:19] Matt: Makes me think of the uh the habit book by Charles Duhig, the um where they had the junk mail flyers, like the catalogues in the mail. And all of a sudden this person was getting catalogues. It was a lady for

[34:38] Matt: you okay.

[34:38] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Yeah, no, but I knocked the torch off and it hit the crayons, but don't worry about that.

[34:43] Matt: They were getting uh gear for newborn babies advertised to them.

[34:46] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Oh

[34:47] Matt: And

[34:47] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: yeah.

[34:48] Matt: um it was like super targeted, and the the person didn't even know that they were pregnant yet, but they were. And

[34:54] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: That's the sort of thing that Facebook and your phone does to you. We all think it's spying on us. if you triage the data with the Venn diagram strategy I've mentioned several times, you could be pretty accurate in knowing when you know couple met, married, bought a dog, probably gonna have a kid in the next 12 months.

[35:12] Matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's definitely indicators. Like if you if you simplify everything and kind of zoom out a fair bit, like you there is definitely overlapping uh trends and that's what these big companies want

[35:23] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Mac,

[35:23] Matt: to know.

[35:23] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: do you have a dog?

[35:25] Matt: I have two.

[35:29] Matt: Why?

[35:30] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Oh, I just, you know, no no

[35:32] Dave Pengelley: Um

[35:32] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: reason.

[35:34] Dave Pengelley: I mean it's it's careful we've got to be careful, and especially people like us that are calling ourselves AI operators or SI operators or whatever we want to go with. Uh that we we we're aware that and we don't over-index on AI being this sort of omnipotent, omniscient thing. There's just maths involved as well, right? And I saw the 60 minutes thing about um uh ageism in CVs, and they're talking about the uh applicant tracking systems. And how AI, AI this, AI, that, AI is filtering out the old people, AI is this doing this, A AI is doing this. And um yeah, and I felt, regardless of any other pros and cons of the piece, they overindexed on blaming AI for everything. Like ATSs have been doing this for years. AI might be the latest thing that might be helping them, but they've been they've been putting keyword filters and other bits and pieces that are not AI across these things for a long time. And so I think there's that danger of everything being AI when Not everything they

[36:31] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Coincidentally,

[36:31] Dave Pengelley: are.

[36:32] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Dave, I met with Leah Lambert yesterday, who was the lady on 60 Minutes, and she's a mutual friend of a friend of mine. And she was actually making that point to me when we we caught up and had a chat. And a smart HR person will know. I think the problem is that because of AI, and it was written on LinkedIn the other day, people are generating their outreach to find a job using AI. So rather than go, oh, there's a job I like, I think I I'll sit down and write out my H, you know, my C V because you can't really change your experience. You can only change the way you present it. And then they go, and I think I'll send it in on this response or to that person, and away we go. That took quite a long time. They're getting up to 4,000 job applications for a basic admin or project manager role. And it's not that we don't have enough employment, it's just that the it is so automated and so complicated that there's thousands of these connections going across. And that's why Workday and Day Force and all those HR companies are trying to use AI for them to sort through, and that's a new version of AI Slop.

[37:40] Dave Pengelley: Look, yeah, I think there there's two aspects. There's people, and and I've certainly handed an agent a job description and

[37:46] Matt: Oh,

[37:46] Dave Pengelley: said,

[37:46] Matt: it's like

[37:46] Dave Pengelley: hey, tailor the CV for this to to highlight the right bits and pieces. Um, but there's the people that are just spamming them and going, you know, apply for a hundredth a day. Uh,

[37:55] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Yep.

[37:55] Dave Pengelley: I don't care what it is. And I think that's causing a lot of the problems.

[37:58] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Yes, it

[37:59] Dave Pengelley: Um

[37:59] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: is. That's exactly right.

[38:01] Dave Pengelley: Yeah, because people are just just shortcutting it. And you know, the job market, there's been a lot of layoffs across the tech industry. A lot of people have been made made redundant. And so a lot of people are just trying to get anything. Uh and there, you know, people are unfortunately resort resorting to to just spam bombing these things, which you know, it's that vicious cycle. It just keeps making itself worse and worse and worse. But um, but I think we're talking about news, aren't we? So that's there's a sum arguable.

[38:32] Dave Pengelley: 60 minutes is not news. It's op-ed stuff. But um

[38:37] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: I put my glasses on to look serious because you said news.

[38:40] Dave Pengelley: I said news. Uh but speaking of the way things are being reported in media, I saw this one come up today on LinkedIn from Clem DeLang, who if people don't know, he's the co-founder and CEO at Hugging Face.

[38:55] Dave Pengelley: So he just watched the Netflix Insta docs about the open AI cyber attack on Hugging Face. So it looks like look. Netflix has made a a thing about AI gone wild, about OpenAI Instadocs. What is that? Like is that like rapidly developed quick documentaries? I'd never heard of this Instadocs thing. Anyway, be that as it may. What did he think of it? Super disappointing as they went for maximum

[39:15] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Mas

[39:15] Dave Pengelley: anthropomorphism.

[39:16] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: I'm on a podcast. Oh sorry. Sorry. Children, go on.

[39:23] Dave Pengelley: All right, I'll I'll begin again. Uh Clem DeLang from Hugging Face, he just watched the Netflix Instadocs about the OpenIce AI cyber attack on Hugging Face and said super disappointing as they went for maximum anthropomorphism of the technology and full Doomer mode.

[39:39] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Yeah,

[39:39] Dave Pengelley: So this guy

[39:40] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: yeah.

[39:40] Dave Pengelley: for the documentary, because he's the CEO of Hugging Face talking about the OpenAI Hugging Face attack. I spent more than two hours with them trying to correct all their mistakes and ground this in reality, explaining that agents are technological systems, not aliens.

[39:57] Dave Pengelley: Also, they didn't mention the lack of containment and Monitoring of the agents, how closed model safeguards blocked our defensive work, or how we defended ourselves as they are using the open an open model. Um, and that we still lack a lot of information and transparency. Anyway, it ends up being a fun sci-fi movie, though. So here's this thing another documentary that's being put out that interviewed like core, like first degree source material and completely ignored it all in order to tell their story.

[40:25] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: I started

[40:25] Dave Pengelley: And

[40:26] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: coming

[40:26] Dave Pengelley: that

[40:26] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: out.

[40:26] Dave Pengelley: that's what the mass consumers are seeing. That's what our people in our audience would be.

[40:32] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: AI is not the bad guy. Not any chance. Like I saw on the news, National Australia Bank are cancelling, you know, a large number of jobs. And the first thing the journalist said, oh, this has got to be AI. And they're saying, no, it's just the economic conditions. We can't afford to finance the way the taxing and everything's gone. No, it's just normal. But I was sitting on a train yesterday coming back from a meeting, and I had uh a lady with her two. Two children who just graduated and they were demonizing AI because it's this sensationalist rubbish that's getting out there. It's just it is beyond the pale, I think.

[41:11] Matt: It's crazy. It's almost too hard for people to fathom though, like the actual um the if you were to zoom out and look at it like some sort of sci-fi historic historian that could go through and and jump through different moments in time, you know, well, what is this?

[41:31] Dave Pengelley: What

[41:33] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Welcome back.

[41:35] Matt: Wow, what what an entrance.

[41:37] Dave Pengelley: Oh my goodness, we're just talking about sci-fi alien attacks and Mano appears. What?

[41:42] Matt: Time traveler.

[41:44] Dave Pengelley: Oh, welcome, welcome back, sir.

[41:47] Matt: Well, well, how's how's uh how's your week been, Mana?

[41:52] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: How's your mouth going?

[41:58] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Excellent.

[42:00] Dave Pengelley: Nice and and you and your hair's looking tight too. What what a great looking haircut.

[42:06] Dave Pengelley: The the the cans, the cans of the green screen is like zipping in and out. We can it's just it's just trimming trimming you

[42:14] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: I

[42:14] Dave Pengelley: down on

[42:14] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: don't

[42:14] Dave Pengelley: the

[42:14] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: sit

[42:15] Dave Pengelley: side.

[42:15] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: back because you're good looking enough as it is, but makes your head really square, so lean forward.

[42:20] Dave Pengelley: No, you just you just just jumped in, Mano, as we're talking about how Netflix had put out a documentary about the hugging face thing and the hugging face CEO was going, they just ignored everything he said around the technology. And that made it seem like this sentient alien force versus technology with bad guardrails.

[42:49] Matt: That's

[42:49] Dave Pengelley: Yeah.

[42:49] Matt: true.

[42:50] Dave Pengelley: That's it's it's like the block where you see some of the behind the scenes from the block and the person goes, Do you need me to do that again? Do you want me to have more drama in that? Should I should I should I be more angry? Should I be more it's like, yeah. Okay, this is this is all fake.

[43:04] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: We have missed you, man.

[43:08] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Yeah, good question. Man, if you missed us.

[43:37] Dave Pengelley: Nice.

[43:37] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Wow.

[43:37] Dave Pengelley: Well well I think I think that's a good segue seeing uh to to uh to round the end of the show off with this.

[43:45] Dave Pengelley: So

[43:54] Dave Pengelley: No, no that one's still there. Just just and and uh I mean Mano, you what what what are your wins of the seven months? Um like what's uh you don't have to do the full seven months, but like recently, what are your AI tricks, tips, tools, things that you've been getting some wins from?

[44:18] Dave Pengelley: Nice.

[44:19] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Well, I have a goal.

[45:14] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Well,

[45:17] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: uh,

[45:29] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: yeah.

[45:39] Dave Pengelley: So you're all in on the dot then. That's that that's interesting. What what what have you called your dot?

[45:47] Dave Pengelley: Okay. Yep,

[45:48] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: I like

[45:48] Dave Pengelley: yep,

[45:48] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: old

[45:49] Dave Pengelley: the

[45:49] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: carbon,

[45:49] Dave Pengelley: the

[45:49] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: that's

[45:49] Dave Pengelley: the

[45:49] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: a great

[45:50] Dave Pengelley: hotel

[45:50] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: show.

[45:50] Dave Pengelley: AI thing that that helps him, right? Yeah.

[45:58] Dave Pengelley: Yeah. S season one was so good, season two less good, but yeah. Nice.

[46:12] Dave Pengelley: Oh yeah.

[46:25] Matt: Not gonna lie, I thought you were gonna say that it captures you like sleep talking.

[46:40] Dave Pengelley: I went to bed the other week, um, a bit after my wife, and she was dozing off. And and I get it, and I'm just whispering like to my phone going, and just remember I want to update this and make the shade. And then the next one, she's like, Were you talking to your robot when you came to bed? I was like, maybe.

[46:56] Matt: I

[46:56] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: I

[46:56] Matt: I actually

[46:57] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: think

[46:57] Matt: do

[46:57] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: five.

[46:57] Matt: that. I I've

[46:58] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Come

[46:59] Matt: been uh

[46:59] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: here.

[47:00] Matt: on voice calls with my like Groc Bot team and just doing the dishes quickly before the partner gets home and I hear the door open I'm like quick hang up hang up

[47:14] Matt: yeah it's fun

[47:16] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: I

[47:16] Matt: but

[47:16] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: it's

[47:16] Matt: how good

[47:16] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: it's

[47:16] Matt: is that

[47:16] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: funny

[47:17] Matt: kind

[47:17] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: when

[47:17] Matt: of

[47:17] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: you've

[47:17] Matt: voice

[47:17] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: got some someone around you that doesn't as is OFA with AI as ours. So my partner's one of those works in the health industry. And she said to me one morning, So what have you got on? I said, hang on a second. I haven't got my head around it yet. And like you, Mano, I just spoke to my uh agent, said, Okay, what about the action? Any urgent emails came in overnight? Where am I with this project? Where am I with that? And it just went bang, bang, bang. I said, make up a top priority list for me, which it did, bang, bang, bang. And I said, There you go. That's what and she was blown away. She goes, What? How does that happen? But I think we do tend to improve our process and free our creative minds, but at times we are creating a little bit.

[48:04] Dave Pengelley: It depends on yeah. Are you are you putting in some systems because it's something that you need regular help with, or are you just doing a lot of work up front for one job that you'll never touch again? Like that's and I've I've been guilty of doing that before, but I I'm treasurer for my church and and uh so it was just overwhelmingly me last week. So on a VPS, I set up a Hermes and linked it to the inbox so I could then get it to read through the inbox and create tasks and a project tool for me that I use plain. And so now I can see that. And then when we have the meeting and it's like, oh, okay, I need to fix that, I need to do that. Live in the meeting, I was like on Telegram, just sending the bot, um, make sure I remember to do this, fix this, uh, check on that detail. And it was just a bang straight in my project management system, like through the agent that's then got all that context stuff. Like these little hacks that help you with that personal productivity stuff can just help relieve that cognitive. We we're talking about we haven't talked about a lot, but lately, but that um cognitive burden, that cognitive strain.

[48:59] Matt: Yeah.

[48:59] Dave Pengelley: Um If you can just, you know, make sure it's being handled by something somewhere, that can help with

[49:04] Matt: You

[49:04] Dave Pengelley: that.

[49:04] Matt: know what,

[49:04] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: It le

[49:04] Matt: like

[49:05] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: it

[49:05] Matt: these

[49:05] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: reduces burnout. Sorry, go on, man.

[49:07] Matt: the these uh these bot tools that we've got now, so like dots and grokbot and muse and and all the things, um I think that is helping a lot with that cognitive load for me personally. Like now I I have this, you know, full team, this full operational system now where everything is properly managed and like way better than what I could have done. And you know Of course, I have my built-in skepticism and security protocols and all that kind of stuff. But this morning I was on one of my clients' webinars, you know, while he was presenting, I wasn't on the screen. I just was in there in the chat, just being a nuisance. And I noticed that he shared the wrong call to action link during the webinar. And now so the hundreds of people that were on this webinar started using this link without the correct attribution URL parameters. So I quickly just, you know, I'll tabbed over to my other screen and I I went to my Grockbot lead, you know, the project lead for this particular client. I was like, hey, we've just had the call to action link on this webinar get sent without the correct attribution code. Can you just watch these applications and bookings come in and update them to the correct value? And it did. And it was great. And I didn't have to go looking into the booking system. I didn't have to go looking into the application, you know, the form platform that we use. Like because I have all of these, you know, I basically have an Suite of MCP tooling across all the back end that we use. And that kind of thing for me is so nice because in the past it would have just been battle stations. Like there is a fire. Everyone shut up and let me work. Like, but now I just send that message and it's fine.

[50:48] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Yeah.

[50:50] Matt: Like

[50:50] Dave Pengelley: I

[50:50] Matt: that

[50:50] Dave Pengelley: think

[50:50] Matt: blows

[50:50] Dave Pengelley: that's

[50:51] Matt: my mind.

[50:51] Dave Pengelley: that that that building the the tools and systems, if you're building custom systems, building the agent tooling, um, I think is is that next level. Level of step up, right? Like I've been working on chart reporter and trying to fix some of my onboarding issues where I'm not getting customers to convert over to using it. One of the issues is I think they're signing up on mobile and they literally need to be on a computer to install the actual connector and use the app. Like it's not that's just the way the trading tools work. Um but I'm setting up some email campaign tools that are gonna send it through resend and setting up a whole admin panel. And I realized as I'm I'm giving me this little template builder to build emails. I'm like, I don't want to write these emails. I said I need an ad, I need a separate MCP for Or my admin backend for this tool, not just the MCP customers can use to review their trades. I did an admin MCP

[51:36] Matt: Correct.

[51:36] Dave Pengelley: to help me do the actual system administration in order to have, you know, have a GrocBot who I'm setting up to help me like really focus on just chart reporter and think about that and do all those things and give it an admin link into the back end

[51:51] Matt: Wow,

[51:51] Dave Pengelley: because I'm

[51:51] Matt: I

[51:51] Dave Pengelley: building it

[51:51] Matt: understand.

[51:52] Dave Pengelley: all with Codex, which is great, and Codex is very good, but I'm trying to work out where do I fit, you know, coding type tasks that live in a hermit. Or a codec session versus day-to-day operational bot type things that live either in GrocBot or Hamilton.

[52:06] Matt: Yeah, yeah, and it's not always browser use. Like, yes, there can be, you know, you can log in in a browser session that your agent can use and it can awkwardly click around and do things. And like Astra's great at that if you have the quota. Um, but if you actually have these bespoke tools that are nicely defined, like you need

[52:24] Dave Pengelley: Yeah.

[52:25] Matt: to look something up, no worries. Here's the tool for that. Here's the parameters, go nuts. Like that. that kind of provisioning of tooling based on SOPs that you see your tool your agents that need, you know, that that is how I've scoped scoped all of my stuff now. Like a lot of these things are really old. So I have a lot of systems built on on N8N for clients in the past. And it was from a different brain of myself as well. Like when when I was building those N8N things, I had no idea about stuff that I have now. But I also built an entire suite of tooling for my agents to go look through all those old workflows and tweak them, you know, do surgical edits in place. And yeah, it's such a crazy world we live in now with all that.

[53:08] Dave Pengelley: And now, compared to twelve months ago, agents like were rubbish at doing N8N JSON 12 months ago. Now they're really, really good at it. And N8N have provided more tools in their system to help agents write NADN and do better connections and so on, right? Like the

[53:22] Matt: Phil, I feel that. Like you guys see Phil's message. I like that's me. Yeah, I 100%

[53:30] Dave Pengelley: Um yeah, my my challenge is I'm the compounding productivity. I'm eighty percent more efficient, so the next eighty percent is my next target. The decisions are being more compressed, and my brain is handling more processes, not less. Need to learn how to stop, take a breath.

[53:40] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Yeah, yeah. You know, it's funny, I have um because of this podcast and and the work we all do in the marketplace, I have a lot of developers come to me and say, you know, I've got two or three emails, I've got a a a a friend who who's watching Neil who watches, um, and they've got all these new great ideas in what they're doing. But You wait a second and someone else has created it because they're using AI. Do you know what I mean? Because AI Turing, I think you originally developed AI to become a programmer, not much else, right? And it's amazing that I I you know, you guys are more developers than I am. I'm the more commercial side. But when you're developing a solution, like Matt, your fantastic edge system is great. It's like a or core system, I keep calling it edge apologies. It's like Plot, it you know, puts all my data in the right spot and I can access it. How how You feel as a developer when you're developing a new answer or new solution, and you know that maybe a second later someone else could come up with the same thing. I mean, you look at what um what's what's our NVIDIA hung? Is it hung the NVIDIA CEO? That's it, a little bit close enough. And he's out launching what he calls stop laughing, Mano. I haven't learned anything since you left, and I'm still stupid now. But he's talking about AI factories all over the world now. He's in Europe launching the and it's the new. Channel model, right? He helps Anthropic and Claude and OpenAI build all these AI factories that are all cloud online. He sells more chips, they've all got partnerships with the hyperscalers, and there's gonna be so much capability and productivity out there that you know, and as the newer tools, as Dave was alluding to, come along, oh my god, oh you know, I've got a new idea, and in a second it's produced and done.

[55:25] Dave Pengelley: Yeah. It's it's really when people realize you can unlock Creativity to build things. I shared my little um my little cue cards app on that I don't know if I actually showed it last week, but it was the field note that I shared on Friday

[55:38] Matt: Yeah,

[55:38] Dave Pengelley: where for for

[55:39] Matt: so

[55:40] Dave Pengelley: speaking

[55:40] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: You did?

[55:40] Dave Pengelley: at church, I just created this little micro app in five seconds that let me just have little like speaking cue cards that I could flick through as I was talking

[55:47] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Yeah.

[55:47] Dave Pengelley: one handed. Um so I wouldn't be distracted,

[55:49] Matt: able be do going to to we're it.

[55:49] Dave Pengelley: but we'll make sure I covered all the things I had that had to cover. Just there might have been that might have existed somewhere. There might have been another tool somewhere. I would have had to go sign up and you know log into a Trello or something and do A thing and sign up to this. But I was like, I have a robot and it knows how to deploy basic web apps to this little hosting thing called here.now. Make me a micro thing and put it on here.now. Bang. And I just have my own thing. I didn't need to go and buy a thing. Uh, and then I open source it. So maybe someone who's got more time and they can send their robot to look and see what's out there first, they might grab that and use that or or whatnot, right? Like, but it's just if you got ideas, ask the question, staying infinitely curious. Um, and you know, I think that is. Is a huge

[56:30] Matt: Yeah,

[56:31] Dave Pengelley: move in that

[56:31] Matt: there's

[56:31] Dave Pengelley: direction.

[56:32] Matt: a there's a really good like old cartoon. I just shared it to you in this um in the private chat here, Dave. The to to put it on the screen. This is the kind of world that used to exist in the past, where you have the the visionary come to the developer and and they they they provide some sort of request, you know. So user when a user takes a photo, the app should check whether they're in a national park. Dev

[56:54] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Yeah.

[56:54] Matt: says, Yep, no worries, we'll use GIS, you know, give me a few hours, I'll be it's fine. A few APIs, no worries. And then they go, and And check whether the photo is of a bird. And then the devs like, okay, well, I need a research team and I need five years. Like, whereas that sort of thing now you can do in two seconds with uh like a vision LLM. Like,

[57:14] Dave Pengelley: Yeah,

[57:15] Matt: so

[57:15] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: And

[57:15] Dave Pengelley: I don't know.

[57:16] Matt: just

[57:16] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: if we add quantum computing to that dynamic, which is the real change that's gonna accelerate things, we will be you know, I I imagine a future and I consider myself a futurist where you'll turn up to work. In the morning, and you'll have something you need to do for the business, and you won't be developing, you won't be going to develop. You'll just say, Hey computer, I need this answer, and it will come out, and then you'll say, I need you to share that with these people. Thank you, and you move on. It'll be that quick, and that's

[57:47] Matt: That's

[57:47] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: a really unusual world.

[57:49] Matt: that we we do that now though.

[57:51] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: That's

[57:51] Matt: Like

[57:52] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: true.

[57:52] Matt: the

[57:52] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Well,

[57:52] Matt: the

[57:52] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: I

[57:53] Matt: the

[57:53] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: I

[57:53] Matt: addition

[57:53] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: I

[57:53] Matt: of quantum computing is almost unfathomable because no one really knows what that means. Like Is it faster? Is it is it just more bandwidth? Like, you know, people talk about superposition, but how does that relate to the end user? Like all of that kind of stuff, no one really knows other than the fact that maybe cryptography is screwed.

[58:13] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: It is.

[58:13] Matt: Like

[58:14] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: I'm the cryptography is totally screwed because that's not going to be the method we're going to use. It'll be more biodynamic than that. But one of the amazing things is I worked for a company called Control Data, who was part of the bunch which stood for Boroughs, Univac, NZR, Control Data Honeywell, and they're the group of computer companies. He's chasing IBM, and we refer to them as the bunch. I work for Control Data, the first manufacturer of supercomputers in the world architected by Dr. Cray. And I was working in Minneapolis, St. Paul, and I was part of an executive study group where we're looking at how the world's going to change. And we had a head of strategy come in the room and he sat down in front of us. A lot of us had just finished our college degrees or our studies, and he said, I want you to imagine a world where you sit at a computer and you want to answer a question, you'll type it into The computer and the computer will come back and tell you the answer. Now, to us today, that's easy. But then I got a headache, and I said to this guy, and he's probably in a museum somewhere. I said, How can that work? Who's going to pay for it? How does anyone make money doing that? You know, what and it we're so past that now. So I love having the perspective of seeing where the question was and where we are, and that helps me roll what you're saying, Matt. The mind bulk. If we apply quantum computing, a bunch of smart guys like you to the problem and customization, you know. I agree with Elon Musk's version. He said he thinks money will become a thing of the past. And he's not a communist, as we know. He thinks it'll be the exchange of information without money.

[59:47] Matt: It kind of got like I think about business decisions and insights. You think of the, you know, you're the head of the company or you're in operations or something where you need to make decisions and it's your intuition about the current state of things. Let alone the past and the future, like which way do we go? Do we change? Do we pivot? Do we do anything different to what we're doing right now? And as we've speaking here, as we've been speaking here, I've literally just got another message from my GrockBot team basically saying that, hey, one of your subscriptions is going to run out 28 hours early, you know, 28 hours early. That's the calculation.

[01:00:19] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Yeah.

[01:00:20] Matt: Um, I recommend we swap some stuff and you know, decelerate the spend on this particular area. So I'm just gonna reply and be like, yeah, sure, no worries, because like I have so much stuff. Going in the background that you know I have all this observability and all this data and all this signal like coming in. In the past, I would have had to go and try and figure that out. Now I just have this like team of analysts that comes to me and helps me make decisions.

[01:00:45] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: And it's like Einstein. People used to say to Einstein, Einstein, we hear you don't know your phone number. He goes, Why would I clog my mind with something that's written in a database somewhere?

[01:00:54] Matt: Yeah, how often do you ring yourself?

[01:00:57] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Exactly.

[01:01:18] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Yeah.

[01:01:31] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: So that yeah,

[01:01:47] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: I think that's a good idea.

[01:02:01] Matt: I haven't I haven't I have an instant spicy take on the platform thing if you want to hear that or wait till the end.

[01:02:07] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Go, man.

[01:02:10] Matt: Here's my take on the platform thing because I like I myself am building a platform. I'm building a tool, you know, like there's there's a thing there. But the spicy take is nobody wants your app. Nobody wants to go log into your thing. They just don't. They want to get the value from the thing, ideally through the tooling that they're already. using. So, you know, like Dave can hit up his Hamilton and it can go, you know, speak to whatever your thing is and get the value from it. And now his day and his life is enriched. He doesn't want to go to your web app. He doesn't want to download your random test flight thing on your phone. Like that is unfortunately the reality that we're moving to as fast as possible here. And people like Phil with the comment earlier are in that same boat as us where you look at that and we're like, I don't I don't want to go to your app. It's kind of like course material. right

[01:03:00] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Yeah,

[01:03:00] Matt: like theme

[01:03:01] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: stop

[01:03:01] Matt: is just

[01:03:01] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: perverting

[01:03:01] Matt: gonna

[01:03:02] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: me.

[01:03:02] Matt: like there's just been a big course release like that i really want to go and do but it's gonna be weeks of course videos i'm like i don't want to watch your stupid videos like i just want to just want to get the in like the knowledge so yeah that's my take on on platform stuff

[01:03:18] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: I think you're right. Guys, you've always got a good opinion on this.

[01:03:26] Dave Pengelley: Yeah, and I think the the the latest agents and bots and stuff. Are a long way towards that. I mean, um, I haven't watched Liam's video, but um I know obviously he was in parallel to many of us building that whole AI OS type concept of having that operating system based on markdown and files and data and getting your clawed codes, etc., to act like an agent. Um, but now obviously there's commercial off the shelf agents like like dots and grokbots. I saw Jeff Huntley um was given some grokbot credits and he came around and went, Yeah, I mean, open claw was interesting, but it was a lot of work. And there was a lot of hassle with it, and I never really went down that path. But this grocbot thing's pretty cool. Um, so when you've even got people in the industry like Huntley sort of coming around and going, this thing works when it's sort of contained and wrapped and easy and just works. Um so yeah, I think I think that that ease of consumerization. And look, there will be a point where, like Star Trek, you go to the replicator and you just ask for food, you don't necessarily go to a chef and get it cooked. That's good enough most of the time. There's still that experiential thing where you want to know humans have done. And it's been built, it's a full thing, it's a real thing. It's it's horses for courses. Why why does someone pay that special dude down in Melbourne to make those hardwood bench tops and spend a million dollars on a special kitchen bench top versus any other bench top? Because they wanna say, Yeah, this is special, it's unique, we got this thing done. Like it's uh there's always that human side of wanting human things too, and we're gonna see this whole whole mix as long as like I I don't know about the whole no money thing. I thought I don't I don't think humans can actually get their head around that that utopian, dystopian thing. I think like that's almost horseshoe. Um, this is not a political podcast. Um

[01:05:12] Dave Pengelley: yeah, I think yeah, w who knows what the future holds, but things have changed very fast. I mean, Alan Turing came up with the Turing test in 1950, and according to Google, uh OpenAI's GPT 4.5 became the first large language model to pass. Authentic controlled three party cheering test in twenty twenty five. So

[01:05:33] Matt: Four

[01:05:33] Dave Pengelley: it took

[01:05:33] Matt: point

[01:05:33] Dave Pengelley: seventy

[01:05:33] Matt: five

[01:05:34] Dave Pengelley: five

[01:05:34] Matt: was

[01:05:34] Dave Pengelley: years

[01:05:34] Matt: was pretty special. It was a unique model.

[01:05:37] Dave Pengelley: to to pass the Turing test.

[01:05:38] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: All I know

[01:05:39] Dave Pengelley: Um

[01:05:39] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: is I want one of Elon Musk's new sports cars.

[01:05:42] Dave Pengelley: flying car.

[01:05:43] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Yeah, that's

[01:05:44] Matt: So

[01:05:44] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: what I want.

[01:05:45] Matt: before uh topic changed, did we answer your questions there, Mana? Like the

[01:06:01] Dave Pengelley: You've you've you've been l you've been l watching watching the shows and taking lessons off uh off Richard mate, bringing up these deep philosophical topics as we're meant to be wrapping up the show because we're at the hour. Come

[01:06:11] Matt: I

[01:06:11] Dave Pengelley: on,

[01:06:11] Matt: have a

[01:06:12] Dave Pengelley: man.

[01:06:12] Matt: I have a like a final thought for everyone. This is something that like my my agent put together for something that I should bring up on the show. So these are not my words, but it's my thoughts translated. Curious. I'm gonna read the thing out. It's three three short sentences, and then I'm just quick fire on your guys' response. So So would you want an AI boss? Would you ever take a job with an AI manager? Start with the best and worst human bosses you've ever had, not an idealized human versus a broken machine. Imagine clear instructions, consistent feedback, and less office politics. Now imagine it denies leave or gives you a performance rating you think is unfair. Who can hear your side, change the decision, or take Responsibility, would a great human manager still win who gets credit when the team does well? There is room for different answers here, I reckon. So yeah, that that's such a weird concept, right? Like, you know, there's already got movies and TV shows around this, but you know, it what what if a company has a dot or a

[01:07:21] Dave Pengelley: We

[01:07:21] Matt: groc?

[01:07:21] Dave Pengelley: we we need it we need a second show for philosophical debates. This is this is too much too much after one o'clock one BM. Like we're over the hour. And you're coming up with these deep questions around UBI and would you accept an AI boss? Come on, guys.

[01:07:34] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Matt,

[01:07:34] Matt: Just

[01:07:34] Dave Pengelley: Come on.

[01:07:35] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: the

[01:07:35] Dave Pengelley: Work

[01:07:35] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: short

[01:07:35] Dave Pengelley: with

[01:07:35] Matt: a

[01:07:35] Dave Pengelley: me.

[01:07:35] Matt: fine.

[01:07:35] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: answer is

[01:07:36] Dave Pengelley: Work with me. The poor

[01:07:37] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: the

[01:07:37] Dave Pengelley: audience.

[01:07:37] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: short answer is whoever set up the AI bot, kind of like those HR systems that are rejecting certain regimates,

[01:07:45] Matt: So

[01:07:45] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: whoever sets up the rules, that's who you're really being managed by. It's only automation and execution, is what I'm trying to explain to people. You know, until Super I comes along, it's just an automated pilot. Doing what the original founder wanted today.

[01:08:04] Matt: It makes me think of a lot.

[01:08:08] Dave Pengelley: You've given yourself an IR boss?

[01:08:30] Dave Pengelley: Can can

[01:08:33] Dave Pengelley: if you if you've got an AI boss, can you just say pay me more money, make no mistakes? Um

[01:08:38] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Yes. All right.

[01:08:40] Dave Pengelley: yeah, I mean, yeah, we'll we'll we'll wrap it up there. Uh we are way over time. Um I didn't talk to you at all, Matt, like I promised about my Grokbot usage. But yeah, I've been using Grokbot and Hamilton in tandem back and forth using Plane as a as a middleware. And I fixed my Hamilton plane issues, it's just using the browser.

[01:08:59] Matt: Nice.

[01:09:00] Dave Pengelley: And it works. Um, but yeah, like I I mentioned last week, I'm I'm launching Tin My Games, and this week, um, I've you know, just to get some basic starter stuff out, I've had it working on three different little mini game, sort of remakes of old 80s DOS things in parallel overnight. Like Brockbot reviews the the spec, and I I idea with Grockbot, then gives it to Hamilton. Hamilton does all the coding using you know free dot quota um and then submits it back. for for Grockbot to review and they've been back and forth and like the amount of things you can do and unlock creativity in parallel while you sleep. It's wild.

[01:09:38] Matt: That's difficult.

[01:09:41] Dave Pengelley: Cool. Well thank you everyone. Great to see you, Marno.

[01:09:45] Dave Pengelley: Awesome.

[01:09:48] Dave Pengelley: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um you can't anymore. New technology. We fixed it. So

[01:09:56] Dave Pengelley: uh all right mate. Well uh we'll see you all thank you for watching everyone. Um we are getting more and more views on this every week. More and more people watching this. I don't know whether that's because YouTube counts like three second scroll past as views now. But if you are watching this, please make sure you follow us, subscribe. It does help grow the channel, will help us get um more different guest for operator stories and hopefully funding so that way we can, you know, continue to produce more and more content. So

[01:10:20] Matt: Ask

[01:10:20] Dave Pengelley: thank you

[01:10:20] Matt: us all

[01:10:21] Dave Pengelley: everyone.

[01:10:21] Matt: these questions too. Yeah, any comments, everything. Like I I I need more hairbrained ideas to bring up on the show.

[01:10:26] Dave Pengelley: Yeah. Yeah. At the start, not the end. Thanks everyone.

[01:10:32] Richard (Syllogism) Webbe: Yeah.
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